[newbieguy]

In the process of setting up my first reef and found live rock at saltwaterfish.com for $199.00 for "Ultra Premium Fiji"/ 45-50 lbs with free shipping. Local stores in Milwaukee selling for nearly $10.00/lb. Has anyone used these guys or can you make another recommendation?

Thanks

http://www.saltwaterfish.com/site_11...ot_parent_id=7

[leebca]

I've never bought live rock from them.

There is no standard for 'live rock' so the seller can make almost any claim they want. You may want to buy the live rock from a place that sells what you are actually seeing. Keep looking around for it. If in doubt, consider spending a little more and buy 10 pounds from 5 or 6 different sellers.

See:
What is Live Rock, Anyway?

[newbieguy]

Thanks for the reply. I guess that's my problem, so many sources, who can I trust? I was trying to keep my cost down (I know, a reef is a large hole in the water that I need to pour money down), and was looking for one reliable source to get me started and save a few $$ on shipping.

"What is Live Rock, Anyway?" link very informative. Thank you for this forum...I'm learning much!

One more question...I read in a posting somewhere about not letting the rock touch the back wall of the tank. I'm setting up a 60 gallon hex, which is rather tall and due to it's location (show tank on my bar) and the way it will be viewed, I was thinking I would almost have to have the rock against the back wall to provide some stability. Another thought I had was to mount a piece of PVC (1 1/2" possibly) vertically in the center and build around that. Is it ever advisable to secure the rock inconspicuously with plastic cable ties to this pipe?

[leebca]

I live in the So CA/Los Angeles, CA area and have seen what quite often happens at the wholesalers. The wholesalers cherry pick from the rock they receive, and either use it for their own aquariums or sell it to those close to their business (e.g., friends). The general public gets 'base rock' or live rock with pods and coralline algae on it -- not much more.

I think those dealing in large quantities of live rock are the least likely to send me what I really want. For my last massive system, I bought 60% of my rock from the above sources -- very disappointing, but not too expensive. ($3 to $4/lb).

For the remainder of my rock I bought from four different (smaller) sources, including off of eBay. On eBay and through some other sites, you can see what it looks like before you buy it. I paid a $1. more per pound for that rock, but it was well worth it. The life that came with it was significantly more diverse (and interesting)! Each source had different diversity on it.

Securing the rock to a hidden structure is a generally positive thing to do. You'd be surprised on the amount of livestock that is lost from a 'rock slide.' Many beginner's books show photos of how to secure rock with plastic ties to structures. They even sometimes recommend drilling holes into live rock to put pipes through or to attach them to pipes.

I've seen some impressive tall hex tanks (one at InterZoo 2006 in Nuremberg was spectacular) with rock piled toward the rear but near the center, all the way up to the surface of the water (a narrow pyramid). At each level were placed livestock that liked the light and circulation it received at that particular level.

A tall hex can make an impressive reef tank, but it isn't very good for marine fishes. Remember --- fish don't swim vertically (up and down); they swim horizontally. A shallow long tank is better for fishes. Almost any size/shape is okay for invertebrates and corals. In fact, having a deep tank lets you keep corals of varying light demands.

Maintaining good circulation around (and in some areas, through) the rock is your goal. Avoiding dead spots is essential, but slow spots are okay -- depending upon your choice of livestock.

Good luck!

[newbieguy]

Thanks again for your input. You are describing exactly what I would like to do. I understand that this tank will limit my ability to house a larger population of marine fishes. However, I do have kids and I know I won't get away without having at least a few for them to watch. Would you compare the available "fishload" to that of a tank 1/2 it's size (25-30 gallons)?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by newbieguy

I read in a posting somewhere about not letting the rock touch the back wall of the tank. I'm setting up a 60 gallon hex, which is rather tall and due to it's location (show tank on my bar) and the way it will be viewed, I was thinking I would almost have to have the rock against the back wall to provide some stability. Another thought I had was to mount a piece of PVC (1 1/2" possibly) vertically in the center and build around that. Is it ever advisable to secure the rock inconspicuously with plastic cable ties to this pipe?

Because of the limited dimensions of your tank, I think building a vertical stack of live rock in the center of tank may not be too practical. We're talking about a tank that is only 24" across from pane to pane and 28" tall. That idea works better in larger hexagonal or round tanks.

It may be better to place the rock flush with the rear pane and slope it down in a partial pyramid. This would give you more open space for growth of corals. It would also make it easier to light, assuming you're using some combination of a single metal halide lamp with (or without) actinic supplementation.

The only reason for not placing live rock against the glass is to allow for better circulation and to be able to clean the glass. If the pane in question will not be viewable anyway, you should go ahead and place your rock flush against it because just about any other configuration in your particular situation would be less attractive.

And, as Lee has already pointed out, be careful in your selection of fish for this particular tank. Stick with fish that are fairly small (adult size 3" or less) and able to get along together in close quarters. Clownfish would work as would a Royal Gramma or an Orchid Dottyback. Any of the gobies and other similar small fish would be fine. A firefish would be fine, too. Flasher wrasses might work but most of the fairy wrasses get too large and are too active for those dimensions. Obviously, all of the tangs and rabbitfishes need more swimming space.

As far as live rock is concerned, this is not something to "save money" on, especially when you consider the total cost of your setup. You do not need a lot of live rock for this size tank but you do need a variety of live rock so that you can avoid the rock-pile look. You can probably get by with a total of about 60-75-lbs of live rock but it would be nice if you included some Tonga branch in there to open up the rock structure. Including Tonga branch and a few flat pieces of live rock will do wonders for your finished creation.

Good luck!

P.S. -- If you check a lot of online vendors, you will find some that offer fully-cured, hand-selected live rock. You can even mix more than one variety in the same shipment. This costs more money but it's worth it. I have no idea what's available right now but usually you can find a pretty good variety of live rock if you shop around.

Another point to consider when purchasing live rock online is the location of the shipper. If it's transshipped live rock, it doesn't matter because it all comes from L.A. but if the shipper is shipping the live rock from his own location, you want to choose somebody close to you whenever possible. The vendor you mentioned claims that they are shipping all of their live rock from their own holding tanks in Ft. Pierce, Florida. There are several Reefland sponsors who sell live rock. One of the them is in Indiana and one of them is in Maryland. Both of those vendors offer uncured or fully-cured live rock and both of them will hand-select individual pieces for you.

Another point to remember is that there is a difference between charging a fixed price for a box of live rock and charging by the pound for the net weight of the rock before it is placed in the box. The vendor you mentioned states that their live rock is approximately 45-50 lbs gross weight, including the box and packing materials. That means you're getting approximately 39-44 lbs net weight of live rock in each box.

[leebca]

Assuming no refugium or sump; further assuming the 50 pounds of live rock; further assuming you will be using a skimmer; finally assuming the bio-load will be mostly fish, snails, pods, and worms -- I'd say a bio-load of 6-8 inches of fish (at future size) that remain smallish will work out well. Maybe a an anemonefish, a Goby, and a dwarf angelfish would be a nice combo. Or a pair of anemonefish and either the Goby or dwarf angelfish.

I would avoid fish that will grow fat or bulky (e.g. a small Harlequin Tusk) or more than 5 inches in length (no matter what size they are when you buy them). Don't stock with tangs or Rabbitfish or any fish of the 'open ocean swimmer' class.

If you remember, and remain patient, to set up the tank for a couple of weeks with the live rock, then add your cleanup crew, and after a couple of months begin to add hardy livestock, your tank will handle the above recommended bio-load at its maturity.

[newbieguy]

You guys are awesome....thanks for the valuable tips and insight (and fast too!). How do you guys find the time to spend helping imbiciles like me on this forum? Maybe by the time I retire from teaching in twenty years and ten reef tanks from now, I'll have something to add to these discussions rather than just leech of of the experts like you nice enough to share!

One more question...

If I form a pyramid against the back wall and something decides to crawl all the way to the back side to the base and die, then what?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by newbieguy

If I form a pyramid against the back wall and something decides to crawl all the way to the back side to the base and die, then what?

Nothing much will happen. If it's a fish, try to remove it if you can. If you can't, all you will get is a small, temporary spike in nitrogen that won't hurt anything. In no time at all bacteria and scavengers will consume all of the remains, including the skeleton if it's a fish.

I had a 5" long fairy wrasse die inside live rock at the rear of my 120-gal tank and all I got was 20 ppm nitrate for three or four days before it fell back to less than 5 ppm. My bristleworms (Eurythoe complanata) and Nassarius snails (Nassarius vibex) feasted on the remains.