[Randy1]

What do you think about this method of reducing nitrates? I'm thinking of trying the water change part.





Nitrates are a part of nature in the ocean, and correspondingly in our tanks.
As waste breaks down in your aquarium, it cycles from ammonia to nitrite to nitrates. The first two are highly toxic to marine life, and we make it a point to make sure our tanks test zero for these. However, nitrates aren’t as bad, and sometimes are even a little beneficial.
Specifically, few organisms need nitrates. Both micro and macro algae love the stuff, while fish tolerate it. Invertebrates suffer if the levels are too high, but a little is required to keep clams happy. In our goal to match NSW as closely as possible, we strive to keep nitrates down to a minimum at 10 ppm or less.
First things first -- what is causing the nitrates in your tank? Bioballs, biowheels, filter pads, foam blocks & tubes, and under gravel filters all contribute to the production of nitrates. Overfeeding is another cause, and a lack of water changes will be another factor.
Nitrates are in the water column, not your substrate or rockwork. Frequent large water changes will quickly reduce the amounts of nitrates present in your system. I battled with nitrates for years, even when using Nitrate Sponge on a weekly basis. I’d change 5 gallons in my 29 gallon tank and see the nitrates drop from 80 to 60ppm, only to rise again. I’d cringe when I’d run a new test and see the fluid bright red before the timer was even set!
Once I removed the 3 year old under gravel filter & my Penguin Biowheel filter filled with bioballs, I was finally on track. I did three 10 gallon water changes in one week, or 33% at a time. Nitrates were down to 20ppm. I became more meticulous with my water changes, changing 7 - 10 gallons each time every two weeks.
Later on that year, I added a sump & refugium to that tank. The saying “Dilution is the Solution to Pollution” proved to be absolutely true. The macro algae in the refugium as well as the small sandbed helped denitrify my tank, and nitrates are ranging from 0 - 2ppm with a water change only being done every other month.
Last November I bought an existing 55 gallon tank filled with 7 fish, 120 lbs of live rock and crushed coral substrate. The previous owners never tested their water, and the nitrates were 200ppm or more. Through a series of major water changes in those first two weeks, nitrates were lowered without stressing the fish. The substrate was replaced with a DSB, and the canister filters with biowheels were removed as a sump was incorporated. Nitrates are down to 7ppm after three months, and only one fish was lost during that period (probably due to starvation… it never looked healthy).
If your tank is suffering from high nitrate levels, the success of your reef will depend on your being able to get this under control. Changing 100% of the water would be the ideal, but it may shock your corals, fish and invertebrates in the process. A more gradual way is recommended.
55 gal Reef Example: Make up 20 gals of fresh saltwater in a trashcan in front of your tank. Drain 10 gals of tank water into the 20 gals of new water, and let that mix. Pump 10 gals of that water back into your tank, and let the power heads mix that water up in your tank for a minute or so. Then repeat this three more times. Dispose of the now polluted 20 gals of water. Make up another 20 gals of fresh saltwater, and repeat this procedure. As long as your temperature and salinity match the tank, your inhabitants won’t be affected adversely, and with each rotation of water, the nitrates are being diluted and removed from your tank.
Simply pulling out all of the water in one massive water change puts stress on your entire tank. Doing small water changes consistently won’t bring nitrate levels down. At best, it will maintain them at their current levels. Using the example above, a tank that was at 80ppm would be around 30ppm after a couple of hours work and your population will be happy and unaffected. Once your nitrate levels drop, they are easily kept low with regular water changes, as well as the use of a DSB and macro algae.
Your tank will be healthier, your reef happier and the nitrate problem fixed!

[leebca]

One 'gross' deficiency in the procedure is failure to match pH. I can only speak for marine fishes -- if the pH of the new water doesn't match that of the display/old water, the fish will suffer.

It's no secret that nitrate control is achieved by exporting it or denitrification. I can find no enlightening bit of news in the post.

[Randy1]

I don't think you read it closely. He's talking about mixing new water with old back and forth to remove and dilute the nitrates. This method is suppose to be much more effective than regular water changes.??

[bguile]

Originally Posted by Randy1

I don't think you read it closely. He's talking about mixing new water with old back and forth to remove and dilute the nitrates. This method is suppose to be much more effective than regular water changes.??

I'm sure he read it right. The idea behind this (which I believe came from Melev's Reef site) is to be able to change out the water to reduce nitrates without the inhabitants "realizing it". That's why he mentioned matching the pH. If the pH, or any other parameter besides nitrates, is different from your system that value will change also; which defeats the purpose.

[leebca]

I recognized the 'new' procedure for exporting nitrates. A mix or slow dilution is an export mechanism. Nothing new there.

If the nitrates have built up to such a high point that their 'sudden' lowering will be detrimental to the livestock, then the long range procedure isn't so much to slowly reduce the nitrates, but the procedure is to prevent that high build up.

The procedure, although emphasizing nitrates, has seemed to ignore other water quality issues, such as pH, when it comes to water changes.

As far as 'effective' goes, if it is only nitrates, the most effective reduction of nitrates by water change, is to perform a large water change. Anthony Calfo does 100% water changes every week. This works fine. Why bother with remove/mix/replace? That is, in my opinion the most effective water change process is the one that gets results, is safe for the livestock, and is the least amount of cost and work. This equals a large water change, as frequently as needed to affect the desired control/levels, and matching water parameters (pH, temp., sp. gr., etc.).

[bguile]

Originally Posted by leebca

... Anthony Calfo does 100% water changes every week. ...

100%?? How is that possible? Does he actually move everything to another tank or is that just a personification of 80-90%?

[leebca]

He claims he leaves the livestock in the aquarium. He refers to it as 'low tide.' Many tidal marine creatures are used to a short dry spell or shortage of swimming space. He drains it out and returns it in a very short time.

For small aquariums (<70 gallons) this kind of water change would not require any trace elements, much (if any) mechanical or chemical filtration. It could probably do well without a skimmer, too. As long as the salt used is representative of the sea, that maintenance should take care of everything. Anthony prefers Tropic Marin (the one I also use), but will use the less expensive salts, too.

I can't imagine a 'perfect' 100% drainage, so I'd guess he's really doing about 95 to 98%.

[adtravels]

nice, helpful solution did you get it from melevs reef?
I have seen one like it there.

[Damsel13]

I am using seawater from Scripps Institute that is trucked to my local fish store. I am new at the finer points of water quality. I have a 55g fish and live rock, ssb tank with some newly introduced zoa's. My nitrates were 200ppm. ACK. Have been doing only 15% water changes a couple of times a week and vacumming sand for the last 2 months with no change in nitrates. I now also have cheato in a small refuge and was using chemi-pure charcoal stuff. I have gotten rid of all filter pads increased water flow with a rio 1700 water pump and am using my old pump as a powerhead. It pushes 400gph.
My question is since I am getting the same water will the pH be the same? Does age and temp. of water change the pH and would it be safe to now do a large water change?

[Randy1]

I'm not sure, check the ph of each before use. Its doubtful that you will be able to reduce that high if nitrates with water changes unless you completely drain the tank and refill which is what I'd do if the set-up is new. If not try to add a refugium with cheato that should do it.

[leebca]

During the first few months, the new marine aquarium is going through changes until it (more or less) settles. See: The Mature Aquarium

If you're dealing with a mature system, then you need to determine where the nitrates are coming from. They can be imported through water changes, so first, check the water you're using for nitrates. It should be near zero, but you never know for sure until you test it.

Next, determine where the organics are getting into the system. Since organics lead to ammonia and ammonia leads to nitrites, and nitrates lead to nitrates, it would be reasonable to first look for organic sources (foods, additives, dying marine life, etc.) that are 'feeding the chain' to nitrates.

I didn't notice a protein skimmer in your list of equipment. This device removes protein and is very important in your efforts to control nitrates.

When the above are determined and 'under control' you next want to look at the means of reducing nitrates. You already know that a water change will reduce nitrates, but that is a rather poor way of controlling nitrates on a long term basis.

The live rock you are using is supposed to support the reduction of nitrates. So circulation to the live rock is important (as you've indicated you've improved), but if the live rock isn't 'live' then it won't do its job. See: What is Live Rock, Anyway?

Next, if you have the 'right live rock' then you have to consider whether or not you have enough of it to handle the normal nitrate production. That which the rock doesn't handle can go to the refugium for consumption (and later removal at harvest time) by macro algae. Live rock comes in a variety of densities so the weight-per-gallon formulas out there aren't that reliable. Still, a general statement can be made that you need about 2 pounds of live rock for every gallon in the system. You can also put more live rock in the refugium, the sump, etc. so long as it receives some light and gets circulation. This formula is modified depending upon the marine life forms you wish to maintain. The more fish you have, the closer to the 2 pound rate you want to be. If you just want a reef aquarium with no fish, shrimp, etc., you can considerably reduce this ratio.

Lastly, you need to consider the live rock as --- a living marine life form. Is it being taken care of properly? (Light, water quality, foods, etc.).

As you can tell, it is a rather complex picture, which is one of the attractions some aquarists have to this hobby.

After all that. . .now to your question. . .

pH will stabilize with a mature aquarium. So long as you have an excess of organics from the above mentioned possible sources, you have an increase in bacterial activity. This reduces oxygen in the water; increases the carbon dioxide, and creates more wastes by the bacteria and can lead to reducing the pH. As complex (or more so than the nitrate issue), a low pH can be caused by many different (or a combo of) things going on in an aquarium system.

[Damsel13]

Well Definately mature...reading ...right kind of live rock? ohh.....building/upgrading slowly . Went for small light upgrade (40w to 96)first and will be adding more but next on the list is more live rock. 2lbs per gal.? I only have 10 lbs. of the live live rock the rest was not so live, live rock.
Where I started 3 months ago:


10/21/06:


After purchase of some more live, live rock and wow it's really alive!

That green stuff on the left side of the pic. is mostly cheatomorphia.

pH humm ok so pH is on the low side, makes sense .
I am hoping to get a skimmer soon. I really, really, really want a Remora C Pro and a Tunze stream powerhead but I can't have them now(that's me having a tantrum) Oh, and I lost the bubbler yay! Now I know life with hardly any salt creep . Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my question and more!

SO for now lots and lots of water changes and WAY more live live rock?

Debbie

[Damsel13]

Ha, just read The Mature Aquariummine is not mature and not new, sigh. Well fish and zoa's are doing well...growing and good color. I'll just hang in there and continue. Oh why no hermit crabs?

Debbie or Dams(as in Damsel)for short

[leebca]

Yes on the way more live rock (IF you want it to handle/process nitrates). The rock in the photo doesn't look too alive to me. Almost all rock will provide a surface for the bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate, but it takes 'real' live rock to handle nitrates.

Regarding hermit crabs, see the end of this thread:
Yes I Know Another Dumb Question

Good luck Debbie!

[Damsel13]

oh well the 6 pounds of "real" live rock have tons of tube worms lots of pods at first now I don't see so many except in back (my mini fuge) with the rest of the cheato. Did read about crabs, k got it. Also read your article about snails. Great articles! Thanks. Oh and I think I have a sponge on one of my new "real" live rocks it is brown and squishy but it has a hole in it like a mouth? and it looks hollow inside. It is about 1/2 inch long and wedged in a deep crevice. So maybe it is not a sponge...but definately alive as it has sort of inflated. Around the hole are little darker dots. Definatley doesn't look like an anemone. Also I got all the bubble aglae off and two Aiptasia's off one of the rocks but there is one left in a crevice(sp?) that is way deep it may go all the way through the rock. Should I dig it out or inject it with boiling water? Any ideas on the "sponge or how to get my ugly hitchiker anemone out?

Deb

[leebca]

Since I'm assuming you want a reef aquarium, it would be best to get after the Aiptasia, before it multiplies. People have tried many things (some more successful than others) at their removal. Physical is the best, BUT you have to get it all. Leave a piece of it or its foot and it will grow back. I suggest you make a new post just on that topic. I think you'll get a lot of input from that. Me, I can't get enough of them, so I'm not one to ask on how to kill them.

Sponges are a good addition to your tank, providing that is the kind of aquarium system you want to set up. Most sponges die when they are removed from the water, so quite often few survive on live rock through the handling it gets, into our aquarium. But, if it isn't a sponge, that may be a concern. I usually don't take risks (with all the money, time, and emotional investment I make to my system) and would physically remove it.

Thanks for taking the time to actually read those references. People don't seem to want to read things any longer than a post, these days!

[Minh Nguyen]

Originally Posted by Randy1

What do you think about this method of reducing nitrates? I'm thinking of trying the water change part.
.....

55 gal Reef Example: Make up 20 gals of fresh saltwater in a trashcan in front of your tank. Drain 10 gals of tank water into the 20 gals of new water, and let that mix. Pump 10 gals of that water back into your tank, and let the power heads mix that water up in your tank for a minute or so. Then repeat this three more times. Dispose of the now polluted 20 gals of water. Make up another 20 gals of fresh saltwater, and repeat this procedure. As long as your temperature and salinity match the tank, your inhabitants won’t be affected adversely, and with each rotation of water, the nitrates are being diluted and removed from your tank.
.....

This is a waste of water and time. What you really need is not to use freshly mix salt water but let it age for a few days, at least 24 hr and make that the salinity and temperature is the same. I use a refractometer to match salinity and use my microwave to heat the water (heat what ever amount fit into your microwave and add to water just right before the water change and bring it up to tank temperature)
I have a 450 g system and change about 100 g of it every month. I certainly never have any mortality from water change. The coral may slime for a few hrs but that is all. My fish never got sick from it. They breed in my tank and keep on breeding without a pause. I never measure pH of the water either.
In my 100 g tank, I even change 100% of the water daily for 5 days when the Rio PH burn up and dose my tank with a dose of copper. I lost all my shrimps and bleach most of my coral from the event, but the corals that live, recovered after one week. Once I start to change the water, no more fish died from the tank crash.

The most important thing here is that newly mix salt water can be toxic, even if all the salt are dissolved and temperature and pH adjusted. Why this is the case, I don't know for sure. It may have to do with metal and trace element toxicity. Almost all metal with bind to organic molecules and become inactive given time and organic molecules in the water.

[Damsel13]

That is a great tip I think about letting the mixed water age. Many years ago I wanted to breed fw angels and got a tip to let the tap water (well it was over 20 years ago) sit for a few days. I know it is way different than salt water however I had baby angels in no time after starting this procedure of aging water.

Hi leebca I did remove that sponge and it was a sponge but it was black and like you said better safe than sorry. I found a picture of one that looked just like it after it "reinflated" in my tank. Anyway got a hold of a really nice piece of rock, not completely cured. been watching it in the lfs for 2 weeks. The water where that batch of rock was curing was finally clear and the rock didn't smell (always a good sign :>) so I rinsed it off with salt water and put it in my tank.... well saw some die-off fish and inverts were fine but my Yellow Tang is stressed. I put it in 3 days ago and that Tang definately did NOT like where I positioned it. Moved the rock so it is in a less precarious position and Mr. Tang is settling down. He has a small outbreak of black ich down from 14 dots to about half and smaller today. Poor guy.

Deb

[Damsel13]

look in the middle at the top of the branch....a bug!


my tank 11/11/06


Mr. T