[RHINO13]

Hi everyone i am sad, I have just been informed that the previous owner of my 46 gal bowfront had to treat the tank with Jungle No More Algae(cotains.05% copper sulfate pentahydrate) I have been asking around and im getting some people that say i should get a new tank,sand and water(inverts will die)

My tank has been up and running with Saltwater(mix) for about 3 weeks and i added 60lbs of Carib-Sea Arag-Alive about 2 weeks ago (before i knew of this potental problem)

I really dont want to rebuy a new tank salt and sand, i was going to purchase my live rock and add it within the next week but i am now scared of wasting more money on this tank.

Any opinion on this would be of great help
P.S Sorry Ninong i totally respect your advice

[golfish]

I'd replace all the sand....

[Minh Nguyen]

The very least is to remove everything ad dump the sand. keeping the sand is asking for trouble.
You can go to Home Depo and get crush limestone sand (use to raise pH of soil) in the garden section of the store, and use it as reef tank sand. It is about 3 dollars for a 50 lb bag.
I am using it for my tank and have no problem with it. It is very fine sand. I would rinse it a time or two before put it into your tank. Ist tank I use it is, I did not rinse it and it take a week before I can see to the back of the tank. It is OK now but every time my pistol shrimp stir it up, it take a few minutes to clear. I am setting up another tank at this time, I will rinse it three for four times before put it into the tank.

[RHINO13]

Quick question guys why do you say to dump sand, then add different sand. wont i still have the same problem that i did before i added this sand?

The very least is to remove everything ad dump the sand

Are you saying to remove equipment and consider them trash as far as saltwater goes?

[Minh Nguyen]

Metals will bind to surfaces. Sands will be full of copper in it and it will release out into solution when the pH of the tank/sand go low. This will surely affect the live in the sand bed and of your invertebrates in the tank. You should dump the sand bed because the surface area in the sand bed is huge. The tank surface may have copper bind to it but the surface area is really minor. Someone (Dr. Ron I think) recommended that you can remove all the copper by acid wash the tank with strong acid. This is too expensive and too dangerous and would likely out cost the price of a new tank.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Minh Nguyen

Someone (Dr. Ron I think) recommended that you can remove all the copper by acid wash the tank with strong acid. This is too expensive and too dangerous and would likely out cost the price of a new tank.

Hi Minh,

Yes, it's Dr. Ron who recommends a decontamination procedure involving an acid wash followed by several rinses with R.O./D.I. water, followed by an acetone bath, followed by several more rinses with R.O./D.I. (or distilled) water.

Randy Holmes-Farley has posted that in his opinion a thorough wash with vinegar, followed by rinses, followed by a wash with a strong solution of bleach, followed by more rinses should be sufficient for glass tanks.

Both Randy and Ron recommend discarding any calcareous sand and live rock because you can't remove copper from calcium carbonate surfaces. As you say, it will continue to release over a long period of time.

[RHINO13]

Im sorry Minh Nguyen im still a little confused.

You can go to Home Depo and get crush limestone sand (use to raise pH of soil) in the garden section of the store, and use it as reef tank sand.

Why would I do this after you just said

Metals will bind to surfaces. Sands will be full of copper in it and it will release out into solution when the pH of the tank/sand go low. This will surely affect the live in the sand bed and of your invertebrates in the tank. You should dump the sand bed because the surface area in the sand bed is huge.

The sand that i have in there now was never in the tank when the No More Algae was applied

[Ninong]

The copper from the two different Jungle products that were dosed (fungus product and algae product) in the tank when it was a freshie tank has adsorbed to the glass walls of the tank. This is a strong chemical bond. Unless this copper is removed from the glass walls of the tank, it will continue to desorb (release) over a long period of time.

We're talking about very low levels of copper -- too low to be measured by typical hobby test kits -- but very low levels of copper are detrimental, even lethal, to many invertebrates.

If you choose to use the tank. You could follow Randy's advice as it is a lot easier than Ron's advice. Randy's advice is to throw away the sand, clean the tank with vinegar, rinse it thoroughly, clean it with a strong bleach solution and then rinse it very thoroughly. Randy says this should remove the copper from the glass. When you added the saltwater to the tank, the copper began to desorb (release) and adsorb to the sand because the sand is calcium carbonate and copper loves calcium carbonate.

P.S. -- Remember the thread you read last night that Brooke posted? Her tank was a used tank that had previously been dosed with Fungus Guard by Jungle. This is the same situation that you are in except that you listed two different Jungle products that both contain copper. That means there is copper adsorbed to the glass walls of your tank.

You are very fortunate that you discovered this problem BEFORE adding the live rock or any animals. In Brooke's case, and in most threads like this, the new hobbyist has already added everything before things begin to go bad. Live rock is more expensive than sand and saltwater and it would have to be discarded, too.

[Minh Nguyen]

I (mis)understand that you added more sand into the tank with sand and rock that was treated with copper treatment. If all you sand and rock are new, then I guess it is OK, but have a trough clean of the empty tank would be a good idea and would not hurt. See Ninong post above (I guess back to Ninong)

[Minh Nguyen]

Originally Posted by RHINO13

....
My tank has been up and running with Saltwater(mix) for about 3 weeks and i added 60lbs of Carib-Sea Arag-Alive about 2 weeks ago (before i knew of this potental problem)

I really dont want to rebuy a new tank salt and sand, i was going to purchase my live rock and add it within the next week but i am now scared of wasting more money on this tank.

......

Think about this:
The cost of the salt and sand is very little, certainly less than 100 dollars. Cheaper if you use my suggestion on the limestone sand.
The cost of most invertebrate, or two is certainly cost mor than the sand and the salt. Consider this and see if you think this is worth it. I can tell you that for my reef setup, the cost of the tank, sand and salt (and RO water) cost less than 10% of the total cost of my set up including the animals.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by Minh Nguyen

I (mis)understand that you added more sand into the tank with sand and rock that was treated with copper treatment. If all you sand and rock are new, then I guess it is OK, but have a trough clean of the empty tank would be a good idea and would not hurt. See Ninong post above (I guess back to Ninong)

Minh,

He hasn't purchased the live rock yet. The tank has been set up for three weeks now with just saltwater and sand. During that time, the copper that was adsorbed to the glass has been gradually desorbing and adsorbing to the calcareous sand.

He purchased the tank used. It's a 46-gal bowfront. It was previously set up as a freshwater tank. The previous owner dosed two different Jungle products that contain copper sulfate. This is exactly the same situation as we had with Brooke in this thread.

[RHINO13]

Hi guys,Ninong I think that only one of the products contained traces of copper

The copper from the two different Jungle products that were dosed (fungus product and algae product)

Jungle Fungus Clear active ingredients; nitrofurazone, furazolidone, potassium dichromate Jungle No More Algae has .05% Copper sulfate pentahydrate.
Ninong remember my tap water situation, how would i begin to rinse my tank as good as im am imagining it would need to be rinsed after bleach?

[Ninong]

It only takes one product with copper but I was basing the two products statement on what you posted previously:

Jungle Fungus clear

Jungle No More Algea ( this is the one i'm most worried about it says it contains .05% copper sulfate pentahydrate)


The anti-fungus products contain copper sulfate. We know that from Brooke's thread because she posted the ingredients from the label on the bottle. You posted that the No More Algae product also contains copper sulfate.

The manufacturer's website does not list the ingredients. I guess you're supposed to buy the stuff first and then read the label later? That's actually better that some manufacturers who refuse to even list their ingredients on the label.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by RHINO13

Hi guys,Ninong I think that only one of the products contained traces of copper. Jungle No More Algae has .05% Copper sulfate pentahydrate.

0.05% copper = 500 ppm (that's parts per million). Copper as low as 2-3 ppb (that's parts per billion) can cause harm to some invertebrates, especially mollusks.

[RHINO13]

Ninong I dont believe i ever stated what ingredients were in the Fungus Clear until this thread but that doesnt realy matter.As you pointed out

It only takes one product with copper

0.05% copper = 500 ppm (that's parts per million). Copper as low as 2-3 ppb (that's parts per billion) can cause harm to some invertebrates, especially mollusks

i believe this is the main point. Saying so what do you think about my question?

Ninong remember my tap water situation, how would i begin to rinse my tank as good as im am imagining it would need to be rinsed after bleach?

Thanks again all!!!

[Ninong]

Actually you didn't say what the ingredients are in Fungus Clear and the manufacturer's website doesn't give that information; however, Brooke posted that Jungle's Fungus Guard product contains copper sulfate and you posted that their No More Algae product contains copper sulfate.

I don't know what to tell you about using the tapwater to rinse your tank now that you have brand new copper pipes that were just installed in your house within the past few days. I don't know how risky that might be.

[RHINO13]

I posted them in this thread Ninong

Jungle Fungus Clear active ingredients; nitrofurazone, furazolidone, potassium dichromate Jungle No More Algae has .05% Copper sulfate pentahydrate.

Well do you think i shoukd buy a copper test and test the water or maybe a RO/DI unit to do the rinsing (isnt the flow of water out of these unit rather slow?Would it be feasable to rinse in such a way?) Can you maybe give me a price range of the cost of the copper test in the ranges I would have to be testing?Or do you or anybody know if and where i could purchase another 46 Gal bowfront aquarium only(it seems everyone I can find wants to sell with stand) I would like to only have to spend around $150-$200 being i would have to purchase more sand and what not.

You have been so much help, I thank you so very much.

[Ninong]

The hobby test kits are designed to measure copper at levels used to treat fish for ectoparasites. Such levels are much, much higher than the very low levels that can harm invertebrates. Another problem is that test kits only measure the copper concentration in the water sample, not the copper that is bound to the glass walls of the tank or the live rock and sediments. Copper that is adsorbed will be gradually released in very small amounts over a period of several weeks or possibly longer. So testing for copper is a waste of time and money. You only test for copper in a QT tank when you're using a copper medication.

I don't know what to tell you about rinsing out your present tank. Most people would probably just take the tank outside and clean it out there with vinegar and then pump the garden hose on it to rinse it off and then clean it with a strong bleach solution and then hose it off real good after that. Maybe that would still be OK in spite of the fact that you say your house just got brand new copper plumbing. I really don't know. It could be that the very brief amount of time that the water from the hose comes into contact with the glass walls of the tank won't really amount to anything. I just don't want to tell you to go ahead and do that and then if the tank turns out to be a problem anyway later on you would wonder why.

You pretty much have to figure out what you're comfortable with doing.

[RHINO13]

I was thinking of the copper test more for testing my tap water(for rinsing purposes only,I now know not to fill tank up with it)Also I noticed you didnt really say anything about

do you or anybody know if and where i could purchase another 46 Gal bowfront aquarium only(it seems everyone I can find wants to sell with stand) I would like to only have to spend around $150-$200

Is that because this is impossible for a new 46 g bowfront?

[Minh Nguyen]

This is what I would do if I were you:
You should get an RO unit because you really need this for reef tank. You can get it at Costco and plumb it into your sink for drinking. It cost about 180-200 I think. This unit have everything you need including a 2 g reservoir tank and automatic shut off when the reservoir tank get full.
You should get your tank outside and follow the procedure outline by Randy to wash it. Just use the garden host to rinse it. Even with copper plumbing, it should be OK to rinse the tank with garden hose because the amount of copper in the water would be very low and it should not be a danger for this use. Elemental copper does not dissolve in water very much at all. The copper that is toxic to invertebrate and in medicine is ionic copper. You should not use tap water for top-off so a RO unit is really need. You can even have short-term success with tap water, but long term (12+ months) the dissolve solid and nitrates in tap water will catch up and will cause lots of problems.

Once you have the tank wash, try to set it up with just sand. Seed the sand with live sand from established sand from an establish tank (rubble from live rock tank or sand from LFS reef tank is OK), and add a snail or two as test subjects. Don't buy live rock but you and get some limestone so the tank has some solid surface for algae to grow and the snail to craw on. The purpose here is to try to establish a fauna population (and the snail) in the sand and rock and see if it is OK. If you fauna, and your snail live you are home free and just add the rock and you ready to go. If you snail cannot live even when there is food for him then you should replace the tank. Snails are especially sensitive to copper on surface because that is where they eat.
You should be able to use the RO system for drinking water and tank even if you have to replace the tank. This way you should not have to replace anything other then the sand and the salt. I would not use all live sand. I think this is a waste of money and the live sand in a plastic bag by Carib-Sea (that you bought) is the especially terrible scam. After a week or so in the bag, everything is dead except some bacterial. BTW, lots of thing that LFS and people sell for reef tank are nothing but useless junk designed to remove money from you wallet.

There is a chemistry forum on Reefcentral.com moderate by Randy if you want the chemistry expert opinion on what you should do.

What ever you do, the very best of luck to you and your tank.