[mad_dog01]

I recently had a bout with red hair algea in my tank. I treated it with red hair algea remover and all of it is gone. My question is my water clarity is pristine after the treatment, can i assume that when I had the algea outbreak small particles was also suspended in my water causing the clarity of my water to go down?

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by mad_dog01

I recently had a bout with red hair algea in my tank. I treated it with red hair algea remover and all of it is gone. My question is my water clarity is pristine after the treatment, can i assume that when I had the algea outbreak small particles was also suspended in my water causing the clarity of my water to go down?

Can you specify which red hair algae remover did you use exactly? It will help if we are sure that we are discussing algae and not cyanobacteria. Can you describe what that algae looked like?

[Ninong]

zhenya,

As far as I know, they don't market any algicides for use in saltwater tanks, so I suspect what he's talking about is "red slime remover," a product marketed to remove cyanobacteria, which is often incorrectly called red slime algae. The only products available in the hobby that kill algae are for freshwater tanks only and only after you have removed all snails, crustaceans or any other freshwater inverts--usually just snails. Almost all hobby algicides contain copper, which you can't use in a reef tank.

As Reefland (Scott) can tell you, there are no products to remove the red hair algae he had. He ended up throwing away all of the live rock in the tank and starting over. I had that nasty red turf algae and to this day I'm not sure how I got rid of it. I like to think that maybe it was the Turbo fluctuosus snails but I'm not sure of that after you told me they feed mainly on diatoms.

[disblondie]

Dear lord- I am now COMPLETELY confused- Soooo- red slime algae is NOT the same tthing as cyanobacteria???? I ask, and am equally confused because we are dealing with the "red hair-like substance that is clinging to our rock and other things"- My "substance" remover is called Chemi-Clean- Red Slime Algae Remover- and not to say that it has been an absolute clear-all, cure-all- it has not; however, it has lessened the problem, just not eliminated it- Now, my question is----- Is it even feasible to entertain the idea of sucessfullly eradicating this hideous nuisance from my systems, or am I doomed to suffer this, and basically wave a white flag in submission??? We have bought Kent PolyOx, but I am not afraid to tell you that I am afraid to use it, because it requires too many pre-existing precise parameters to be confident about using it- SOOO- if there is a wealth of advice, wisdom, random experience- whatever, please - let's try to find some sort of a resolution, cure, extermination tactic- something!!!!!

[charlie]

Red slime = cyano IME. Is it easily siphoned off of where it is? If it is cyano, siphon it off when you do a water change. Increase the amount of water changes, and maybe the flow in your system. By siphoning the stuff out, you are effectivly removing nutrients from your system, but the bottom line is, you need to find the SOURCE of the problem. Maybe cut back on your feeding!!
Can you tell us a little more about your tank and that might help us out to help you.

By the way:

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by disblondie

Dear lord- I am now COMPLETELY confused- Soooo- red slime algae is NOT the same tthing as cyanobacteria????

Please take another look at the title of this thread as posted by the topic starter: "Red Hair Algae."

Now you are asking if "red slime algae" is the same thing as cyanobacteria.

To try to keep all of these various common names straight, I need to point out that red hair algae and red slime algae are not the same, at least not in my vocabulary, but it is quite possible that the person who started this thread really meant to say "red slime algae" instead of "red hair algae."

The common name "red hair algae" should be reserved for hair algae that is red in color instead of the usual green.

In the reefkeeping hobby, many hobbyists used the expression "red slime algae" to refer to cyanobacteria, which is commonly called "blue-green algae" by most non-reefkeeping people. Of course, it isn't algae at all but that's a long story.

Cyanobacteria (aka blue-green algae and red slime algae) are photosynthetic bacteria. They come in many different colors and many different forms. The cyanobacteria that most reef aquarium hobbyists are familiar with is usually a dark reddish-brownish-blackish color but it can be bright green or blue-green or a wide variety of colors. The cyanobacteria that freshwater aquarists are more familiar with is usually blue-green in color.

Under the old five kingdom system, cyanobacteria was in the kingdom Monera. The most recent system, based on DNA & RNA analyses, has only three kingdoms: Bacteria, Archaea and Eukaryota. Cyanobacteria are in the kingdom Bacteria. All plants and animals are in the kingdom Eucaryota. It's hard to keep up with this stuff because it keeps changing thanks to advances in molecular biology, but if you accept the phylogenetic system, then we're down to just three kingdoms (domains).

Here is a photograph of what is almost certainly cyanobacteria that someone else posted in this recent thread. It's green instead of the usual red color that most marine hobbyists are used to seeing.

I ask, and am equally confused because we are dealing with the "red hair-like substance that is clinging to our rock and other things"-

I'm not sure that it is cyanobacteria if it appears "hair-like." Most people do not describe cyanobacteria as "hair-like" in appearance. Most people describe it as "slimey" in appearance. If you lift it up manually, it will usually come up in sheets. That's because the strands are sticking together.

My "substance" remover is called Chemi-Clean- Red Slime Algae Remover-

I'm not sure what's in Chemi-clean. It's some unknown chemical but I don't think it's an antibiotic. Actually I really have no idea what it is? Do you? I don't think the manufacturer wants anybody to know what it is. Other brands that are marketed as "cures" for cyanobacteria, such as Maracyn and Red Slime Remover, are thought to contain an antibiotic -- erythromycin.

I'm not fond of any of those products and I would never put anything in my tank if I had no idea what it was or how it worked. A search of Reef Central under Chemi-clean or Red Slime Remover will turn up several reports of catastrophes that the posters attributed to their use (or misuse) of those products.

Never believe the advertising claims of any of the manufacturers who market magic cures to reefkeeping hobbyists. They may claim that something is completely reef-aquarium safe when it isn't. For example, they will say their product is safe if the product itself doesn't do the killing. Oftentimes it's the toxins that are released by the dead and dying targeted problem (cyanobacteria, flatworms, etc.) that cause the problem. Or, in many cases, the use (especially over-use) of the product in question causes a severe sudden drop in oxygen content in the water, which causes problems. This can happen when there is a large sudden dieoff of bacteria for instance. That's why all of these various manufacturers will instruct you to remove as much of the problem substance (cyanobacteria, flatworms, whatever) manually before beginning treatment with their magic potion.

and not to say that it has been an absolute clear-all, cure-all- it has not; however, it has lessened the problem, just not eliminated it-

None of these products can eliminate the problem because none of them treat the causes of the problem. They treat the symptoms! They make the symptoms go away temporarily but do absolutely nothing about the underlying causes.

Now, my question is----- Is it even feasible to entertain the idea of sucessfullly eradicating this hideous nuisance from my systems, or am I doomed to suffer this, and basically wave a white flag in submission???

First of all, I would suggest that you stop wasting your money on chemical "cures." They are not effective long-term and some of them can be harmful if the directions are not following precisely. Very precisely!

We have bought Kent PolyOx, but I am not afraid to tell you that I am afraid to use it, because it requires too many pre-existing precise parameters to be confident about using it- SOOO- if there is a wealth of advice, wisdom, random experience- whatever, please - let's try to find some sort of a resolution, cure, extermination tactic- something!!!!!

Well, first of all, we have to know what your problem is? Is it cyanobacteria or is it some sort of nuisance red hair algae? Reefland (Scott) and I have both had our problems with nuisance red hair algae (although different species) and I can tell you that I would much rather have to deal with cyanobacteria (aka blue-green algae or red slime algae) than with true red hair algae. I finally defeated my red hair algae after about a year but Scott never could get rid of his red hair algae. He had to throw out all of his live rock, etc., and start his tank all over again. Please remember, neither one of us had cyanobacteria, we had red hair algae.

Assuming you have cyanobacteria:

Cyanobacteria is a photosynthetic bacteria that is nitrogen limited. It is also indirectly phosphate limited. That's because of the Redfield ratio. If P is lacking, nitrogen fixation will be retarded. When nutrients are not limiting, the molar element ratio C:N:P is 106:16:1 -- the Redfield ratio. Many hobbyists have reported success in fighting cyanobacteria by the use of Rowaphos or similar phosphate sponge products. In truth, you should work to reduce both nitrate and phosphate but if you throw the N:P ratio out of whack by reducing P to less than 1:16 vs. nitrate, then you can screw up the cyanobacteria's ability to reproduce. That way, even if you have some nitrate in your system, the cyanobacteria can't utilize it unless there is one part P for each 16 parts N.

This possibility came up in a very long and very boring thread on another board. Here is how I tried to explain my thinking then -- the first paragraph is an abstract I lifted from online:

A compilation of data on the elemental composition of marine phytoplankton from published studies was used to determine the range of C:N:P. The N:P ratio of algae and cyanobacteria is very plastic in nutrient-limited cells, ranging from <5 mol N:mol P when phosphate is available greatly in excess of nitrate or ammonium to <100 mol N:mol P when inorganic N is present greatly in excess of P. Under optimal nutrient-replete growth conditions, the cellular N:P ratio is somewhat more constrained, ranging from 5 to 19 mol N:mol P, with most observations below the Redfield ratio of 16. Limited data indicate that the critical N:P that marks the transition between N- and P-limitation of phytoplankton growth lies in the range 20-50 mol N:mol P, considerably in excess of the Redfield ratio. Biochemical composition can be used to constrain the critical N:P. Although the biochemical data do not preclude the critical N:P from being as high as 50, the typical biochemical composition of nutrient-replete algae and cyanobacteria suggests that the critical N:P is more likely to lie in the range between 15 and 30. Despite the observation that the overall average N:P composition of marine particulate matter closely approximates the Redfield ratio of 16, there are significant local variations with a range from 5 to 34. Consistent with the culture studies, lowest values of N:P are associated with nitrate- and phosphate-replete conditions. The highest values of N:P are observed in oligotrophic waters and are within the range of critical N:P observed in cultures, but are not so high as to necessarily invoke P-limitation. The C:N ratio is also plastic. The average C:N ratios of nutrientreplete phytoplankton cultures, oceanic particulate matter and inorganic N and C draw-down are slightly greater than the Redfield ratio of 6.6. Neither the analysis of laboratory C:N:P data nor a more theoretical approach based on the relative abundance of the major biochemical molecules in the phytoplankton can support the contention that the Redfield N:P reflects a physiological or biochemical constraint on the elemental composition of primary production.

That leads me to believe that at N:P ratios well in excess of the Redfield ratio, P-limitation may take over. That was something I hadn't considered previously, before reading your post. I believe the reason I overlooked it was because P-limitation is extremely rare in marine ecosystems. Virtually all marine ecosystems are N-limited. Freshwater ecosystems are typically P-limited.

If the N:P ratio is high enough, N-fixation would be impacted. In that sense, P could be limiting. While this may not be something you would come across in a natural ecosystem, it could be the basis for claims that P reduction in a captive marine aquarium could help to control cyanobacteria.


So, the first thing you need to do if you have a problem with cyanobacteria is to make sure you have good protein skimming to reduce nitrogen, phosphate and dissolved organics.

The next thing you want to do is make sure you have good water flow, especially in the problem areas. Cyanobacteria thrives in areas of low flow. High flow physically breaks up the strands.

You will also want to make sure your lighting is not in need of replacement. The reason for this is extremely complicated but suffice it to say that if your lamps are old (whether fluorescent or metal halide), then they could be contributing to your cyano problem.

OK, here's a post that I made in another thread a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away:

There are a wide range of cyanobacteria and different species contain different pigments. The most common pigment in the cyanobacteria typically found in home aquaria is phycoerythrin. It has good absorbency between 500-600 nm with an absorption peak at 555-564 nm. The other two phycobillin pigments -- phycocyanin and allophycocyanin -- have their absorption peaks further into the red. Phycocyanin has good absorbency between 550-650 nm and allophycocyanin has good absorbency between 600-675 nm.

I don't know of any cyanobacteria pigments that have absorbency beyond 700 nm. Chlorophyll-a and the carotenoids peak in the blue and then chlorophyll-a has another peak in the red around 690 nm.

Marine cyanobacteria is more likely to have pigments that absorb at wavelengths available in a marine environment. Red light is quickly absorbed by the water column in a marine environment. That may be why phycoerythrin is more common than allophycocyanin in marine cyanobacteria.

Here is a chart of cyanobacteria pigments and their absorbency.



P.S. -- I forgot to mention the obvious: As lamps age, they tend to degrade unevenly, shifting to the red, which means they are shifting into a range of the spectrum that is more conducive to cyanobacteria.

P.P.S. -- As a reference, I think I will attach a photograph of my nuisance red hair algae. It never grew more than about 1/8" to 1/4" high because my Foxface Rabbitfish (Siganus vulpinus) grazed on it. How I finally got rid of it is a long and mysterious story for another time. I just want to post this picture of something that is NOT cyanobacteria or red slime algae. It is red hair algae (aka red turf algae). I was never sure of the identification as far as species or even genus.