marine snow good or bad

[felix5747]

does any1 know if marine snow is a good suppliment to feed coral and clams and what should i bee feeding sun polyps

[reefheadhbyst]

phytofeast is the best dt plankton does ok same for the polyps

[greenbean36191]

Corals need meaty foods. Brine shrimp nauplii and cyclop-eeze are good foods for corals with small mouths and for LPS types, small chopped bits of seafood work well. Adult Tridacna clams do well without any supplimental feeding, but it doesn't hurt to feed them phytoplankton as well. The juveniles (under 3 inches) require it. Live phytoplankton like DTs is best.

Marine snow is mostly water and isn't a suitable food for much of anything in a reef tank.

[trentruf]

i have had good luck with coral excel

[Frogfish]

Marine snow is simply water and detritus. You already have plenty of it in your tank. If you want to use it to feed some corals, and I do this on occasion, you simply need to "turkey baste" your live rock to suspend the detritus in the water column.

BTW... if you don't have any detritus in your tank I would be more than willing to sell you some!

[reefheadhbyst]

u dont need detritus dont buy it

[weez1959]

Detrius, Hmmm, I have some for sale too!!

Has anyone ever used masago? I feed it once a week to my corals and they seem to love it. Especially the hairy mushrooms, they close up really fast around it...
I was wondering if sun polyps would like it, if anyone has tried this on them I'd like to know....

[sihaya]

I agree with Mike... and the new independently done, peer-reviewed and published research does too:

DT'S PLANKTON FARM - Natural Reef Diet Oyster Eggs & Live Marine Phytoplankton

DT's is the only phytoplankton that's truly alive and (in my opinion) that makes it the best. Phytofeast might be ok for feeding rotifers because they'll eat anything. Marine Snow is just worthless.

[chris&barb]

and the new independently done, peer-reviewed and published research does too:

DT'S PLANKTON FARM - Natural Reef Diet Oyster Eggs & Live Marine Phytoplankton

DT's is the only phytoplankton that's truly alive and (in my opinion) that makes it the best.

that study is a marketing ploy. of course DT will say there product is better. you should ask Randy Reed what he has to say about that study

[sihaya]

I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear... the research was INDEPENDENT and done at a national respected UNIVERSITY and has been PEER REVIEWED.

This is Mr. Tagrin's response to posters who want (and need!) to know more about the research:

I generally do not post on forums but in this case I think there are a few facts that you should know.

This study was conducted by two independent researchers:
Dr. Bassem Allam, an experienced marine biologist.
People at MSRC
Dr. Emmanuelle Pales Espinosa, an expert in the study of phytoplankton. http://www.dtplankton.com/mgw2/epe-...ublications.pdf

It was conducted at Stony Brook University.
Welcome to the Marine Sciences Research Center

1. This study took about a year to complete it was done in two 10 week trials. With preparation and then writing the report each experiment took 16 weeks. There was also a period of time between the experiments while they were waiting for the lab to be available.

2. Peer review took about 8 months and by the time it was published it was two years from the start of the research.

It was published in Zoo Biology
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/...493585/ABSTRACT

...


Study 2: Comparative Growth and Survival of Juvenile Hard Clams, Mercenaria mercenaria, Fed Commercially Available Diets: DT'S PLANKTON FARM - Natural Reef Diet Oyster Eggs & Live Marine Phytoplankton

To respond to your comments concerning what products were tested, they were;
DT’s Live Marine Phytoplankton, Phyto-Feast Live, Phyto-Feast Coral & Clam Diet, BioPlankton, MarineSnow, Phytoplan, Phytoplex, Phytomax, Chromaplex, Chromamax. There were also test done to determine the effects of refrigeration on Isochrysis, Tetraselmis and Pavlova.

If you are still questioning the merits of this study, I suggest that you order a copy of the research article from the publisher. You can use this link and after you register with the publisher (free) you can order a pdf of the article ($25) http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/...493585/ABSTRACT

[chris&barb]

Adult Tridacna clams do well without any supplimental feeding, but it doesn't hurt to feed them phytoplankton as well. The juveniles (under 3 inches) require it. Live phytoplankton like DTs is best.

i have to disagree that clams under 3" "require it"(phytoplankton). the myth that clams mantles are not fully developed untill this size, and there mantles are not large enough to house enough zoox untill this size just isn't true.

by that reasoning a Gigas (average growth rate of 8cm per year) would not need phyto at just one year. but a Crocea (average growth rate of 1.75cm per year) would need it for 3 1/2 to 4 years.

clams start collecting zoox about 1 month after fertilization. when they go through metamorphosis they already have a collection of zoox ready to move into the ZTS. shortly after metamorphosis is completed there mantles are full of zoox . the ZTS is fully functional at this early age and the size of there mantles stay proportionate to the size of the clam. if a one inch clams mantle is too small to support enough zoox to feed it then the mantle of a 4' clam would be too small also.

this myth come from the CZAR #'s used by Klumpp (92) but if you recalculate the #'s using Muscantine 1990 and Fitt 1993 you will see that the zoox can easily supply the clam with enough CE.

James Fatheree explains this quite well in Giant Clams in the Sea and the Aquarium

[sihaya]

Dude... you really should read this paper. Again, it's peer-reviewed and published in Zoo Biology (an actual science journal).

[greenbean36191]

Fitt's numbers come from T. deresa and T. gigas, which he was culturing in fertilized water to artificially elevate the zooxanthellae density and division rate. I think it's a bit presumptive to extrapolate the carbon budget of tridacnids in general based on his work, especially as it pertains to our tanks. I can't even find any information about Muscatine's numbers or how he arrived at them.

It may indeed be a myth, but in that case there has to be another explanation of why mortality is so much higher for the small clams than larger ones, and why many people like Barry Niegut report much better success with feeding.

The fact that they've retained the functionality of their digestive system and gills for processing phytoplankton despite such a highly derived lifestyle also strongly suggests the importance of phytoplankton. Evolution doesn't generally favor preserving useless structures.

[chris&barb]

[/QUOTE]

and why many people like Barry Niegut report much better success with feeding.

i think you will find this thread interesting in regards to the above.
Reef Central Online Community - Feeding baby clams

The fact that they've retained the functionality of their digestive system and gills for processing phytoplankton despite such a highly derived lifestyle also strongly suggests the importance of phytoplankton. Evolution doesn't generally favor preserving useless structures.

disputing the statement that clams "require" phytoplankton doesnt mean they don't filter feed or use there digestive system. clams eat more then just phyto, and im sure you've seen fecal analysis that show viable zoox in the feces. my main dispute is the claim by some that if clams are not feed phyto they will die, and the amount they rely on filter feeding for CE needs.

phyto is a source of N & P that they pass on to the zoox. if N & P are provided in other ways (usually not in short supply in our closed systems) the clams will do just fine.

[almostdiva]

does any1 know if marine snow is a good suppliment to feed coral and clams and what should i bee feeding sun polyps

to get back to the original question...

feeding sun polyps (i am assuming you mean tubastrea coral, right?). You should feed something small and meaty, cyclopeez, oyster eggs, finely chopped ocean meats as has been previously mentioned). You need to feed each INDIVIDUAL polyp also. I feed mine 2 to 3 times per week. Lots of people put them in a bowl of tank water once the polyps open up, then feed (otherwise your water quality in the main system can become compromised from too many nutrients). I did this too, when I first got the colony and the polyps weren't open as often. Now, the colony opens up almost as soon as I feed everyone else and I just use a cyringe to feed the tubastrea.

Hope this helps!

[sihaya]

i think you will find this thread interesting in regards to the above.
Reef Central Online Community - Feeding baby clams

This is probably why the hobby is so frustrated... too many people willing to put more faith in a thread on RC than in a research journal.

[Poseidon]

Disclaimer- I am a noob when it comes to keeping Clams, I have 1, because my wife made me buy it.

Opinion- Okay I have read the link to DT's, I read the link to RC that disputes DT's and I read the link to RC that debates whether or not clams need to be fed. Here is my over simplification:

Clams do not HAVE to be fed in a home aquarium due to the nutrients available in the water from other forms of feeding. (I think Barry N and Mr Delbeek agree on this.) However with that being said, clams that are fed do better in general then those that aren't.

Isn't this the same as saying you don't have to have halides to keep M. Capricornis alive, but it will do better if you do?

I know the debate about which food is best will go on and on and on, but I can for 100% certain say Marine Snow is one to AVOID! (Tie back in to OP) I read one study in the past that had Marine Snow as 98.5% moisture, meaning WATER. For that kind of money, I will sell you all the water you want right out of my RO bucket.... Heck I'll even add a pinch of Cyclop-eeze to make up for the other 1.5% of something....

Thanks for keeping the debate civil guys/gals threads like these are of great value, as long as no one starts getting personal!

[zhenya]

Well,

I had kept quite a few clams in my days, and I had quite a few die and then I had quite a few live happily in my tanks. I had fed them, and they had died.., I didn;t feed them and they died. Then I had some that lived and are still living. I honestly think that juvenile clams benefit from feedings, and I know they don;t get any benefits from Marine Snow. Live phytoplankton is probably the best food for them, DT;s is one of the best foods out there. I may don;t like Dennis Tagrin of DT's but I respect his product and dedication to the hobby, and I think his product is one of the finest.

[sihaya]

Dennis has been really stressed out lately. Like Gene says, he's incredibly dedicated. And he's more honest than anyone you'll ever meet. I suppose that makes him a little uncompromising, but I guess it comes with the territory to sometimes.

[Ninong]

i have to disagree that clams under 3" "require it"(phytoplankton).

An interesting point that probably deserves more discussion. It is true that laboratory studies have proven that baby clams do not "require" phytoplankton to survive. The same and similar studies have also shown that baby clams that received live phytoplankton had significantly higher survival rates and faster growth rates than clams cultured in water without phytoplankton. William Fitt has been doing these studies for the past three decades or more.

However, studies done in situ that measured the actual nutritional uptake of juvenile clams have shown that they actually do get a very high percentage of their nutrition from filtering when they are very young and this percentage gradually decreases until it virtually disappears once they are adults (with the exception of Tridacna gigas, which seems to retain its ability to filter throughout it's life). So, whether they are capable of surviving solely on their zooxanthellae in laboratory experiments doesn't change the fact that they choose to receive a large percentage of their nutrition from filtering in their natural environment as they develop. Which is obvious if you consider, as greenbean has already pointed out, that it would be a waste of energy to maintain a function that wasn't useful.

Perhaps we should be more precise when offering advice to new hobbyists asking whether they "need" to feed phytoplankton to their juvenile clams and perhaps we shouldn't arbitrarily pull a number out of thin air, such as 3", to describe a cutoff point when the clams can thrive without phytoplankton? However, it's sometimes easier and faster and simpler to simply say, "Yes, you should feed your juvenile clams live phytoplankton on a regular basis if they are less than 3" if you want them to do well." That's sound advice, especially if the new hobbyist in question has a brand new reef aquarium that is only a few weeks old, which is often the case when such basic questions are asked on the boards. If the reef aquarium in question is at least 18 months old with a mature deep sand bed and thriving live rock, then it contains sources of nutrition that aren't yet developed in a newly started system.

by that reasoning a Gigas (average growth rate of 8cm per year) would not need phyto at just one year. but a Crocea (average growth rate of 1.75cm per year) would need it for 3 1/2 to 4 years.

It's easier to pick a safe number and stick with it than to have to post a chart on the growth rates of each of the different species of Tridacnids and estimate when it would be reasonable to expect that the clam has matured sufficiently that supplemental additions of live phytoplankton are not required. Another point that you haven't mentioned but I sometimes like to point out is that very small but more frequent additions of phytoplankton are better than less frequent larger additions because clams (and all filterers) are designed to filter constantly and are not capable of handling large surges of food at one time.

clams start collecting zoox about 1 month after fertilization. when they go through metamorphosis they already have a collection of zoox ready to move into the ZTS. shortly after metamorphosis is completed there mantles are full of zoox . the ZTS is fully functional at this early age and the size of there mantles stay proportionate to the size of the clam. if a one inch clams mantle is too small to support enough zoox to feed it then the mantle of a 4' clam would be too small also.

I'm not sure what your point is here? I think it's a matter of semantics. Surely you aren't denying that baby clams actually do feed on phytoplankton in the wild? You are probably disputing the advice that baby clams "require" phytoplankton to thrive? It's certainly the natural way to go, so why not try to duplicate that in our reef tanks?

I think what you are doing here again is disputing the popular advice that baby clams "require" phytoplankton and you are assuming that the people who offer that advice base it on a belief that the mantles are not sufficiently developed to support the baby clam's nutritional requirements exclusively through autotrophic means. I think the advice is based on the fact that baby clams naturally get a significant percentage of their nutrition heterotrophically in addition to their autotrophic nutrition supplied by their zooxanthellae. I have seen numbers ranging from 40% to 60% heterotrophic uptake in very young clams in various studies. I don't think there is any question that clams are capable of acquiring all of their nutrition from their zooxanthellae once they reach adulthood but some people are convinced that they may still get as much as 5% of their nutrition heterotrophically. I'm not too sure on this last point because one source claims that only T. gigas continues to feed on phytoplankton as an adult.

disputing the statement that clams "require" phytoplankton doesnt mean they don't filter feed or use there digestive system. clams eat more then just phyto, and im sure you've seen fecal analysis that show viable zoox in the feces.

Viable zooxanthellae are found in the feces of virtually all zooxanthellate animals. It's a process of constant renewal. Zooxanthellae are expelled for various reasons, such as an adaptation to varying light conditions, but they are also expelled for unexplained reasons that are thought to be nothing more than a recycling of older zooxanthellae. In the latter instance it is not known how the zooxanthellae to be expelled are chosen. This is in Yuri Sorokin's Coral Reef Ecology but I sold my copy a couple of years ago so I can't cite the exact page. Having read the damn thing three times, I'm confident that I remember most of it.

my main dispute is the claim by some that if clams are not feed phyto they will die, and the amount they rely on filter feeding for CE needs.

They won't necessarily die but they will certainly have a better shot at surviving if they are provided with something that meets their natural diet. The amount they rely on filter feeding depends on whether you are using a laboratory study that measured whether it is possible for them to grow without any additions of zooxanthellae or whether you are using actual measurements of their uptake in nature. Even the laboratory studies prove that they have higher survival rates and faster growth rates when fed phytoplankton.

phyto is a source of N & P that they pass on to the zoox. if N & P are provided in other ways (usually not in short supply in our closed systems) the clams will do just fine.

Perhaps it would be better to say they will survive. And don't forget that many of the people who ask these questions have brand new tanks that are sometimes only a few weeks old, if that. For such hobbyists, I think supplemental feeding with live phytoplankton offers many benefits.

In summary, you are correct that juvenile clams can survive without phytoplankton. However, that's not the way they do it in the wild! Their eggs and early larvae contain no zooxanthellae. To acquire zooxanthellae, the clam larvae have to filter them from the water and ingest them without digesting them. They can't even begin to do this until about two weeks into their larval development when they begin to develop the tubular system in their mantle tissue that will hold the zooxanthellae. Until then the larvae depend wholly on capturing and ingesting planktonic organisms. The tubular system grows from the digestive system into the mantle and the zooxanthellae (e.g., Symbiodinium microadriaticum) that are ingested, but not digested, begin to migrate into the mantle within two to nine days after metamorphosis.

The juvenile Tridacnids continue to acquire a substantial percentage of their nutrition heterotrophically as they mature. The heterotrophic-autotrophic ratio gradually changes from approximately 50-50 when very young to approximately 5-95 as they reach adulthood. There are obvious survival advantages to being able to switch between modes of uptake, especially during periods of persistent cloudy weather.