[knutcracker]

hi everyone,

so, after a year of uncertainty and indecisiveness, i decided to restart my tank.
basically, i had killed of my bio filter/bacteria 6 months ago, for details of what happened, you can read here if you like: So, it looks like i killed my bio filtration, what should i do now?

i am not really starting all over. as of an hour ago, i have added 30lb of new cured LR to the tank. hopefully, it will reach a critical mass and re-seed my tank. despite my wish to fuss around with aquascaping, i decided to just it alone. my questions are these:

1) do i have to replace the new LR with 30lb of old LR, or can i take out less, like 15lb?

2) as it is sitting, should the lights (130w PC) be on or off? if off, how long?

2) how long should i wait before i aquascape? because of the size of the tank (26g) and the amount of LR (60lb), i need to aquascape in batches, as in, having LR sitting out in buckets, periodically while my hands are busy in the tank.

3) i haven't cycled a tank since i started this one four years ago, so any suggestions, tips, and precautions, will be appreciated.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by knutcracker

i have added 30lb of new cured LR to the tank.

That's more than adequate for a 26-gal tank.

hopefully, it will reach a critical mass and re-seed my tank.

I really don't understand your concern here??? In particular, I'm confused by your use of the phrase "critical mass?"

1) do i have to replace the new LR with 30lb of old LR, or can i take out less, like 15lb?

Unless you dumped copper, or something similar, into your tank, then there is nothing wrong with your "old" live rock. Adding new live rock is always a good idea but I don't understand why you think there is something wrong with the old live rock?

2) as it is sitting, should the lights (130w PC) be on or off? if off, how long?

I would leave the lights on but you could run them for only a few hours a day if you like until you add photosynthetic animals, such as corals, etc.

2) how long should i wait before i aquascape? because of the size of the tank (26g) and the amount of LR (60lb), i need to aquascape in batches, as in, having LR sitting out in buckets, periodically while my hands are busy in the tank.

Why not aquascape now? And 60 lbs of live rock sounds like a lot for a 26-gal tank, especially if you expect to keep a few fishes in there.

3) i haven't cycled a tank since i started this one four years ago, so any suggestions, tips, and precautions, will be appreciated.

Just take your time and don't rush into adding fish or invertebrates for a few weeks, even if your water parameters seem normal.

[knutcracker]

thanks for your reply, ninong.
the whole idea was to replace half of my old LR so that the new half can reseed the old half. from your statement, it seems like any amount is sufficient, and i didn't really need the 25 lbs i paid top dollar for. that's what i meant by "critical mass", a sufficient amount that can reseed the whole tank (perhaps not a relevant concept). that leads to the question of how much rock i should remove. the main concern, of course, is the sheer amount of 50+ lbs of rock in a 26g, that's why i am compelled to remove some. my question is whether i need to remove as much as i put in, or can i remove less than what i put in (because i really like my old rocks, the shape, the texture, etc).


my other question is, how long should i wait before my first WC? thanks.

[Ninong]

How much live rock you choose to go with in your tank is one of those personal preference things. As far as when you should do your first water change, I would wait at least two or three weeks since you have nothing in the tank other than live rock. In fact, three to four weeks might be even better. It all depends on how fast you want to rush things. The whole idea of the cycle is to allow time for the bacteria to stabilize at a population that is equal to the available nutrients.

I think it is best to wait at least four to five weeks before adding livestock to a newly set up tank.

[knutcracker]

ninong, i wish i could say i have no livestock in the tank. unfortunately, i have 2 leathers, a brain, a trumpet (candy cane), and some mushrooms. except for the brain, they have all been in the tank for 3 years. i hope that replacing close to half of the LR will not be too big of a shock to them. I tested the water today (24hrs later), and the levels are what i usually have (pH 8, ammonia 0, nitrate 10). In such situation, how long should i wait for the 1st WC? how often should i repeat the testing from now on? more importantly, how can i tell if my tank has been absolutely reseeded? thanks for your insights.

[Ninong]

You should do your water changes according to your usual schedule. How often and how large is really a personal preference thing. A monthly 15% water change seems reasonable to me but others may prefer something different.

Your live rock is fine as far as bacteria is concerned. Bacterial populations rise and fall in response to available nutrients. The only reason for adding fresh live rock to an existing tank is to refresh the other lifeforms (microcrustaceans, polychaetes, etc.) that reside on and inside live rock. The bacteria in your "old" live rock was NOT killed off. Even if we accept the proposition that it could somehow be "killed off," it would have immediately repopulated the same rock in no time at all provided there was a supply of nitrogen for it to feed on. Nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are ubiquitous. You don't have to "buy" them or replenish them or add them. They're everywhere, whether you realize it or not, and they will set up housekeeping to process the available supply of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). That's why paying extra for so-called "live sand" that contains semi-dormant bacteria is an unnecessary waste of money.

[knutcracker]

ninong, in regard to the livelihood of the bacteria, you and a few others on the forum have given me the same response months ago. For a whole year, layers and layers of brown/grainy algae persisted, first, on my crush coral bed and then on my sand bed (they cover the LR that are higher up in the tank too). Whatever made me: 1) do two 50% WC in 3 days 2) move my tank and threw out my lively crush bed 3) thought the algae was cyano and possibly over-dosed UltraLife red slime remover is beyond me. Since then, my bioload was never too big and my maintenance has been very adequate (trust me). Yet, 24 hrs after a WC, traces of the algae layer appears, and within a week, you can't even see the white sand.

Perhaps, I didn't wipe out the entire spectrum of beneficial bacteria, but i just might have killed off a few key species. Whenever i test the water, the results are ALWAYS ammonium 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5-10. Perhaps, the bacteria that breaks ammonia down to nitrite survived, and i only wiped out ones that are responsible for the subsequent steps. i don't know.

when my tank stops smelling dank, the water looks so clear as if it just plain salted RO/DI, the sand bed motionless, and LR lifeless, i can't help but think that i really messed up. it's hard for me to believe it at first. i didn't think i could be that boneheaded and harsh. but i think the facts add up. i guess it is hard for any hobbyist to confirm that this could actually happen, because it is just too sad, and just too extreme the opposite of what our hobby entails. but i think it happened. who knows? if i do everything right from now on, maybe i can confirm it with all you guys when life finally comes back . . .

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by knutcracker

For a whole year, layers and layers of brown/grainy algae persisted, first, on my crush coral bed and then on my sand bed (they cover the LR that are higher up in the tank too).

Which is not an indication that your beneficial bacteria had crashed. All it means is that you have a problem with nutrients. Crushed coral sediments are famous for trapping detritus.

Brown grainy algae sounds like it might have been diatoms? Diatoms are silicate limited. Maybe you had a silicate problem?

Yet, 24 hrs after a WC, traces of the algae layer appears, and within a week, you can't even see the white sand.

Possibly a water problem???

Perhaps, I didn't wipe out the entire spectrum of beneficial bacteria, but i just might have killed off a few key species. Whenever i test the water, the results are ALWAYS ammonium 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5-10. Perhaps, the bacteria that breaks ammonia down to nitrite survived, and i only wiped out ones that are responsible for the subsequent steps. i don't know.

No, that's not possible. You didn't wipe out any of the bacteria. All of the bacteria necessary for nitrification and denitrification are ubiquitous. That means they are even in the air!

when my tank stops smelling dank, the water looks so clear as if it just plain salted RO/DI, the sand bed motionless, and LR lifeless, i can't help but think that i really messed up. it's hard for me to believe it at first. i didn't think i could be that boneheaded and harsh. but i think the facts add up. i guess it is hard for any hobbyist to confirm that this could actually happen, because it is just too sad, and just too extreme the opposite of what our hobby entails. but i think it happened. who knows? if i do everything right from now on, maybe i can confirm it with all you guys when life finally comes back . . .

There are all sorts of possible explanations for why tanks become problem tanks such as yours. None of the explanations involve a lack of bacteria unless you added a bactericide, which some people actually do when they add mysterious potions designed to cure something or other. Even then, the bacteria would return after the antibiotic had dissipated.

[Freddy Twotimes]

I have always had a fish tank and had not experienced as much difficulty as I have with a reef. My first attempt went OK for about a year but I started running into problems like green algae smothering everything and so on. Eventually I had a crash due to a faulty heater and lost everything.

When I started over, I focused 100% on the set up this time...the equipment itself. I fiqured that if I could not maintain water quality nothing else mattered. So I bought a skimmer that was good enough to handle more than two times the size of my tank. It was expensive but I did it. I started with 100% live rock that was at least 1.2 pounds per gallon so I had a strong bio filter this time. [the last time I tried to start with base rock and some live hoping it would seed it and I could save some $]

I spaced the rock out as best I could so I could vacuume the substrate and get more water flow around as much of the surface of the rock as possible...and I added enough power heads to unsure I was turning the water over 1000 times per hour. [I rearranged the rock multiple times to achive this. my Ammonia and Nitrite levels did not drop during the cycle until I did this..it took two weeks before I got that right and seen any swing in the levels out of the gate]

I have to say that I have had a much more stable system as a result of this. The first time I was always trying to do what was required for the least amount of money I could get away with. I am not saying this is your case at all...this was my experience but I am not having issues now. The skimmer has been a huge factor for my success I think.

I spend a good amount of money on test kits too. I test often and try to keep an eye on everything so when I do see a problem I am aware of it right away. The test kits over time are helping me to understand the water a lot better. I traced a white haze in my tank to the fact that I turkey basted the rock and it spiked my nitrate...creating a bacteria bloom. I vacuumed the sand, did a big water change and it fixed it! If it means anything, be patient and spend a lot of time focusing on your setup making adjustments improving your equipment if and where necessary, changing out the substrate if necessary, getting more or fresh live rock etc. My cycle process took 6 months and I did just that. Now I am dialed in and running smoothly.

This, in my case, has made all of the difference. I thought I would never have corals for a while. This hobby seems to be more about maintaining the water than keeping the corals!

[wozza]

This hobby seems to be more about maintaining the water than keeping the corals!

For sure!

[knutcracker]

would you not consider UltraLife's Red Slime Remover a bacteride? especially if i overdosed it? is it not possible that by doing so, a unique species of bacteria (one that is not ubiquitous) can be completely wiped out, i.e. killed off all colonies, leaving me with an incomplete flora? i don't understand why this scenario is not possible.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by knutcracker

would you not consider UltraLife's Red Slime Remover a bacteride? especially if i overdosed it? is it not possible that by doing so, a unique species of bacteria (one that is not ubiquitous) can be completely wiped out, i.e. killed off all colonies, leaving me with an incomplete flora? i don't understand why this scenario is not possible.

There are various anti-cyanobacteria products on the market that claim to be 100% safe for use in a reef aquarium. I don't believe those claims. I have read too many posts over the years by many different hobbyists who lost livestock and, in some cases, their entire tanks when using those products. The manufacturers will tell you it was because the hobbyists didn't follow instructions, assuming the product even came with complete instructions, including what to do in the event things don't go according to plan.

As with most products that are sold in this hobby, it is extremely difficult to even determine what the active ingredients are in some of these miracle cures. I have no experience with either Red Slime Remover or Chemi-Clean because I wouldn't consider using either product. Both are marketed as a completely safe cure for cyanobacteria. I have heard that Red Slime Remover is an antibiotic (erythromycin based) and I have heard that Chemi-Clean is an unknown chemical treatment. That's what I have read in threads on Reef Central over the years after someone posted about their personal catastrophe that they attributed to the use of one of those products.

In your case, you say you used Red Slime Remover. If it is an antibiotic, as most informed hobbyists suspect, then it will kill bacteria. If I am not mistaken, the manufacturer takes the position that it doesn't kill off all of your beneficial bacteria, just some. I don't know if the manufacturer's instructions warn you about the potential consequences of a large dieoff of cyanobacteria in your tank? They will usually instruct you to remove as much of the problem stuff (cyanobacteria, flatworms, etc.) by hand BEFORE beginning treating with their magic potion. Was that addressed in the instructions, assuming there were instructions?

It is certainly possible to precipitate a crash of your tank (others have done it) by having a huge release of toxins from the dieoff of a large amount of cyanobacteria at one time, especially if it isn't removed immediately via skimming and aggressive use of absorbing/adsorbing media. The manufacturer probably tells you to turn off your skimmer during the treatment? If so, do they tell you when to turn it back on? Again, I have never used this stuff because I don't believe in such treatments. Reducing nutrients, increasing water flow, reducing organics, and maintaining good lighting are the only approaches that will control the source of the problem. All of those so-called treatments address the symptoms and do absolutely nothing about the causes.

Returning to your exact questions and assuming that you actually did overdose this product, and assuming that it is an antibiotic (probably erythromycin), the bacteria would eventually return. The tank would in effect go through a new cycle. The erythromycin would dissipate. All of the species of nitrifying and denitrifying bacteria are ubiquitous. You can cycle a new tank without any live rock or sand bed at all. And without introducing any purchased bacteria. All you need to provide is a source of nitrogen (ammonia) and surface for colonization. In fish-only tanks with nothing but artificial decorations (or dead coral skeletons), bio-balls or similar media are often used to provide surface area for bacterial colonization. Obviously live rock and sand beds are much more efficient at this but it can be done without either.

In your particular case, based on your description, I suspect that your tank may have crashed due to an overload of toxins and nutrients released when the cyanobacteria and all the other bacteria in your system died off simultaneously. Even so, your system would have eventually recycled itself. You should have removed anything that smelled bad and cleaned it in fresh saltwater before returning it to your tank and you should have done a massive (say 90%) water change. Naturally you should have removed anything that looked like dead matter or slime or whatever immediately.

All of the beneficial bacteria would have eventually returned. The fresh live rock that your are adding to your tank now will add new beneficial microcrustaceans (copepods, etc.) and polychaetes but the beneficial bacteria that are on and inside your new life rock are also on and inside your old live rock, too.

Good luck!

[Freddy Twotimes]

When my first tank crashed, I was told by the LFS that I had no bio filter. By looking at the colors of the test kits I knew he was right. I was mad, not at him just in general. I spent a lot of money and time just to back to a tank and equipment I had no confidence in.

At the time, I had been working with a fish store that was not interested in my success in the hobby and at the time he sold me uncured rock. The new LFS I found was a lot different but I had the rock and I waited 6 months for it to cycle! It was not fun. I started to see the same grenn carpet like algae early on in my new tank and I was ready to give up!

I turned the light off for the 6 months and that made a big difference. [No algae!] Once my ammonia came down and the nitrite, my nitrate was really high! I had to do water changes, vacuum and so on. I honestly needed to purchase 6-5 gallon buckets with lids so I could do these large water changes. I invested in a pump and some tubing to do them quicker but I was buying a lot of stuff that really had little to do with the tank itself...again not fun.

I am happy now that I have all of that stuff because I can do larger water changes really fast and if I need to swap out rock or deal with the substrait] I can put all of the water in buckets for 1/2 hour and pump it all back in as soon as I am done.

The reason for this reply is to say that Chemicals is not what got me back on track. I vacuumed the gravel really well, used 100% new ro water and put in new live rock and it worked for me. I know there has been a lot of replys and I think early on you mentioned you had life in the tank. It would be nice if a LFS would take the corals and put them in quarantine until you can correct the bio filter and water quality. Mine did that for me and in normal circumstances a tank cycles inside of 8 weeks. It would not hurt to ask?

[knutcracker]

thanks for all your inputs this far!
i will ask my LFS if they can host my corals for me.

I tested my water today and the levels once again are Ammonium 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, phosphate 1

my question is: considering having livestock in the tank (softies and LPS), when should i do a WC change and how much? since i only change half of the LR, i don't think i am expecting a spike (maybe i am wrong), therefore, i have no indicator of when a WC is needed. also, should i go ahead and run rowaphos now or should i wait. TIA

[Freddy Twotimes]

Your peramitors look fine to me. [that is as long as the phosphate is .1 not 1.0]

Only testing will tell. I would test daily for a few days and be ready for a water change if it spikes. Its hard to guess what may happen...its easier to be prepaired if a test comes up bad.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by knutcracker

i will ask my LFS if they can host my corals for me.

I don't see any reason for that. You said you are adding fully cured live rock.

I tested my water today and the levels once again are Ammonium 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 5, phosphate 1

Your tests indicate virtually no ammonia spike at all, which is what happens when you use fully cured live rock. You might want to consider using one of the various phosphate reducing products, such as the various phosphate adsorbers (Rowaphos, etc.).

my question is: considering having livestock in the tank (softies and LPS), when should i do a WC change and how much? since i only change half of the LR, i don't think i am expecting a spike (maybe i am wrong),

You can't get an ammonia spike unless you have something producing ammonia. If you don't have anything dying, you don't have anything producing ammonia. The only other way you could get an ammonia spike would be to dump a couple dozen fish into your tank all at once and temporarily overload the system's biological waste processing capacity.

therefore, i have no indicator of when a WC is needed. also, should i go ahead and run rowaphos now or should i wait. TIA

I wouldn't worry about water changes unless you start getting readings on nitrite. If you measure nitrite above 0.1-0.2 ppm, you should consider doing a water change, otherwise just do one when the spirit moves you. And yes, you should start running Rowaphos now if your PO4 is 1.0 ppm.