Sun light as a daylight.

[chefrt]

I’m going to move my tank soon after my rock finish curing. My plan is I going to place my tank at the glass panel at the wall. This glass is about 4in thick, 2ft L and 6ft H, and not the clear glass so only 30% to 40% the sun light will be go thorough to the tank and also the sun is not direct pointing to this glass. With this I can reduce of using light during daytime. My concern is this ok to the tank, how about algae.

[Samper]

I've never understood why people would be concerned about sunlight. The natural environment that these animals come from gets it's fair share of natural light. My 75 gallon in the basement gets sunlight for most of the afternoon with not a single problem. GH keepers use natural light but they have to shade it....don't really understand that concept either. I have read about a few tanks that were very successful with natural sunlight. The only thought I have about it being close to a window would be heat loss...or a stray baseball from the neighborhood .

[chefrt]

For your info I still new to this hobby, it about 2 years. Before I do something to the whole tank I would like to ask as many people I can, that is the safe way to do. I know sunlight is a natural source for the coral and anything living in the tank, but like I say ask many people as you can.

Yea a lot people telling me that I will be facing problem with heat. I think my chiller would be taking care about this. My tank is about 120g but the chiller can handle up to 200g.

[Mr.Firemouth]

Here's the deal.
Use a window tint to prevent the heat transfer from taking place.

Use a phosphate resin to avoid algae issues and do regular water changes.

[chefrt]

I do water change on every month regularly about 20 % and used FSW taken from sea.

[kevinpo]

Hello,
After talking with my friend Anthony a year and a half ago I tried a 40 gallon breeder tank using about 3 hours a day of direct afternoon sunlight through a non tinted window. The room has AC. I did not experience any heat or algae issues. Maximum temperature reached was 81F. I live about 48degrees north so in the winter I had to use additional lighting (150W halide). I am keeping corals and anemones in the tank along with 2-6 baby clownfish. I change 6 gallons of water each week and have some macro algae in the tank. No skimmer or other filtration just a couple of MaxiJet 1200's (295gph ea.) for water movement.

HTH,
Kevin

[chefrt]

You must be the lucky one, without skimmer u can keep everything stable. How much food you give to the fish everydays.

[kevinpo]

Well there's not much luck involved ;) Just a lot of water replacement. At 24 gallons a month it's more than 50% replacement I ran a 140 gallon tank the same way for 2 years. It's not really cost effective way to run a larger tank. It's cheaper to buy a skimmer in the long run and less labor intensive
I feed a small amount twice a day and the anemones once every 3-4 days.
I will try and remember to take a picture of it today showing the proximity to the window.

Regards,
Kevin

[chefrt]

Well Kevin I like to see picture of your tank that will be nice to share on how you do the set-up and to see how the sunlight go through your tank.
Once I finish the changes I plan to do water change on every 2 week, this will be about 20% on every water change and still run the skimmer, now I do 20% water change every month.

[kevinpo]

I also change 20% per month on my other tanks that have skimmers.

Regards,
Kevin

[chefrt]

How often you clean the skimmer. My every 2 days, because this skimmer is very small, actually the capacity only for 50g tank due to difficulty to get good skimmer here I have to used it. I order new skimmer will be arrival this Tuesday, this one can handle up to 250g.

[kevinpo]

I have 8 large skimmers and all of them are cleaned once a week.

Cheers,
Kevin

[Firefish]

I believe one of the concerns with using natural sun light has to do with the wave length / color-temp. that your LR / coral is exposed to.
True all the lr & coral in your tank is under sunlight in the ocean but it's not the same as in your tank.
The whole purpose of having all these specific artificial light sources (6.5k, 7k, 10k, 14k etc...) is to tailer the spectrum of light to your specific coral & LR based on what it would naturally receive being under what, 10-40 feet of ocean water.
The closer you get to the surface of the ocean, the more yellow the light gets (600 nm - 750 nm) which is the band of light most nuisance algae likes. The deeper you get in the ocean the more you get towards the 400 - 500 nm range (more blue), which is where your coral & most LR is found. Unfiltered sunlight, in the 550 - 700 nm range is what the grass in your front yard absorbs so readily to create the carbohydrates necessary to keep it alive through photosynthesis... The algae that keeps your corals alive on the other hand, needs that 400 nm range, if the corals don't get it, the algae living symbiotically inside the coral dies, and so does the coral. Plus, natural sun light washes out the corals natural beauty, I don't really think natural sunlight or any light under 10k has any place in a coral reef tank. I keep a 7k light on for my refugium 24 / 7 to promote algae growth. I'm sure some one will correct me if I'm wrong though.
So allowing the sun to penetrate an 18" tall tank is very different then sun penetrating the same rock / coral under 30' of ocean.

I'm no Marine Biologist but I'd think you'd be looking at some algae blooms if the nutrients are present in your water, even just a few hours a day. I don't think the fish care either way.

I use two 250watt 14k halides, one .96 watt PC .03 actinic and one 96 watt PC 10k in my 72 bow front / no filter - no skimmer, just a DSB, 100+ lbs of LR, refugium / algae tank & 10-15 gal water change every 5 weeks. My numbers are perfect, tank & corals are totally thriving & no algae in the display tank. JM2C

[CSeaSee]

If you've got excess nutrients in your tank, you'll have an algae bloom with any light source- fluorescent, MH, sunlight, etc. Excess nutrients is a filtration issue, not a lighting issue. Using natural sunlight isn't going to cause any problems in your tank that you wouldn't experience anyways, unless your tank is placed in an unusually warm environment to begin with. The latitude of your home isn't a problem- people in Chicago use natural sunlight in their coral greenhouses year-round and they get phenomenal growth. If your tank has access to natural sunlight, I'd use it.

BTW- the greenhouses use shade to keep the temperature of the greenhouse manageable. If you want a really good read, click this link: coral propagation greenhouse construction p1

[Firefish]

While I agree with you that If you've got excess nutrients in your tank, you'll have an algae bloom with any light source, you can see a major difference in algae growth by using different lights. You can see this simply by keeping your lights off all day and taking note on how fast the algae (diatom) grows... hardy at all... Then spark up the 6k halides the next day and within a couple of hours your seeing major growth, now try it with an .03 actinic...not so much growth. Again, all being equal with excess nutrients in the water. So lighting makes a huge difference in (nuisance) algae growth.
Of course there are many factors involved in controlling algae. But algae blooms can be triggered by a tired halide or a tank in direct sunlight. Diatom algae uses red / yellow light to grow...it thrives in that spectrum, it's just a fact. Remove this spectrum of light and you're no longer giving the algae an environment to thrive in...it may still grow, but at least you wont be helping it with the light. Sunlight provides this full spectrum, thus promoting (nuisance) algae growth.

As far as coral greenhouses go, I'd assume this system is better equipped to handle excess nutrients. These systems are larger and more stable then the typical home reef tank. I'm not saying don't try it...I'm just saying be aware that there are tons of instances where reef tanks in contact with direct sun light has caused less then desirable effects.
Worst case - you'll have to move it.

[CSeaSee]

algae blooms can be triggered by a tired halide or a tank in direct sunlight. Diatom algae uses red / yellow light to grow...it thrives in that spectrum, it's just a fact. Remove this spectrum of light and you're no longer giving the algae an environment to thrive in...it may still grow, but at least you wont be helping it with the light. Sunlight provides this full spectrum, thus promoting (nuisance) algae growth.

A tired halide will only cause an algae bloom in the presence of excess nutrients. If you put a tired halide over a tank with pristine water conditions, there will be no algae bloom. Using the analogy that a tired halide will cause an algae bloom would mean that wild reefs should be nothing but an algae bloom- surely the sun provides a full spectrum of light, including the wavelengths that a tired halide would emit. Yet this is not what we see when we go snorkeling!
Take two areas of the reef: an area of unpolluted water, and an area which was once unpolluted but is now polluted. The variable here is the water quality- not the sun (which doesn't change from location to location- on this planet, anyways). Algae blooms aren't found in both locations- only the area of polluted water. The implication, then, is that the light source is not the cause of an algae bloom- the bloom is determined by the conditions of the water.
Diatoms also don't use red/yellow light (or any light) to grow. They use it to make food- that is the purpose of photosynthesis- to make food. Cellular respiration is the biological process that makes things grow. Cellular respiration is light-independent- every living thing, plants and algae included, use some form of cellular respiration. Some plants (and algae- which technically is not a plant) do cellular respiration and photosynthesis simultaneously, some do it consecutively. The point is that light has nothing to do with cellular respiration. If it did, caves would be sterile. Yet caves and deep-sea vents have ecosystems entirely devoid of light.

Using natural sunlight on a fish tank with high water quality will not cause an algae bloom. The only way you'll get an algae bloom using sunlight (or any light) is with low water quality.

[Firefish]

You can have nutrients in your tank and not have an algae problem. If you take the same tank with the same nutrients with no algae, and use the wrong light, you can start an algae bloom. It’s that simple!

Wild reefs seldom get the full spectrum of light given off by the sun. The ocean filters out the yellow (500 - 750 nm) light at typical reef depths.

I have nutrients in my water, my display tank remains algae free, I use only 10k, 14k & actinic lights in my display tank. Again- no nuisance algae present... I have a refugium with lots of hair algae growing in it, I keep a regular 25 watt day light lamp on it 24 / 7... it loves to grow there, not in my display tank. The little extra nutrients present in the water support the algae growth along with the full spectrum light in the refugium.

To say that a specific light has nothing to do with algae growth is just plain silly.
I’m talking about the typical nuisance hair algae that some people find growing in their tank years after the reef has been established and there’s never been an algae problem prior. I’m not talking about one specific bacteria, fungus or algae living in a cave somewhere that can survive without light.
This is a practical forum...you can get practical advice. Advice like, using a full spectrum light source (sunshine) over a tank that has a little nutrient in it will cause a bloom, where as using a light in a higher "k" range will help keep that bloom in check! No really, it's that simple and it works.

[CSeaSee]

You can have nutrients in your tank and not have an algae problem. If you take the same tank with the same nutrients with no algae, and use the wrong light, you can start an algae bloom. It’s that simple!

If we're going to describe anything as "simple" in this discussion, it should be the over-simplified version of how basic life processes work.
1.) A tank with "no" algae will not magically sprout any type of algae simply by changing the lighting scheme. Cells don't just spontaneously occur in nature- thank goodness for that, or surgeons would have their work cut out for them (no pun intended). Algae must first be present in any environment for it to grow. Then, certain other conditions must be met.
2.) The only light that won't promote photosynthesis to any great extent is an actinic light. Any other light used in the aquarium hobby is capable of driving photosynthesis.
3.) Again, photosynthesis alone doesn't drive an algae bloom. Photosynthesis doesn't make things grow! This process creates food. Cellular respiration makes things grow. This process doesn't use light! (In actuality, growth is more complicated, but we're keeping it as simple as possible here and still get the facts right.) These two fundamental, high-school biology level concepts mean that in the absence of any significant nutrients, it doesn't matter what spectrum and/or intensity of lighting is used- there will be no bloom. This is also why tanks with huge hair algae problems often show low levels of nutrients upon testing the water- the algae "sucks up" the nutrients and "stores" them in various forms.

Wild reefs seldom get the full spectrum of light given off by the sun. The ocean filters out the yellow (500 - 750 nm) light at typical reef depths.

Yet algae blooms are still found only in areas of polluted water! Photosynthesis is still taking place even though certain wavelengths are filtered out. Again, given two locations where the only variable is water quality, large algae blooms are only going to exist in the polluted water- because algae blooms are primarily driven by high nutrients. Not any particular wavelength of light. Which brings the argument back to a basic understanding of photosynthesis and cellular respiration. Photosynthesis creates food- in the form of simple sugars. That's it.

I have nutrients in my water, my display tank remains algae free, I use only 10k, 14k & actinic lights in my display tank. Again- no nuisance algae present... I have a refugium with lots of hair algae growing in it, I keep a regular 25 watt day light lamp on it 24 / 7... it loves to grow there, not in my display tank.

If you removed the refugium, your display tank would have nuisance algae. You've created an environment where algae growing in your refugium is at a competitive advantage over any algae floating through or existing in your display, and is able to out-compete anything in your display because your 25-watt day light lamp drives photosynthesis more efficiently than your 10-k and 14-k lamps, therefore providing more food to your refugium's hair algae and enabling cellular respiration to therefore proceed at a faster rate. That's as "simple" as it gets.

This is a practical forum...you can get practical advice. Advice like, using a full spectrum light source (sunshine) over a tank that has a little nutrient in it will cause a bloom, where as using a light in a higher "k" range will help keep that bloom in check! No really, it's that simple and it works.

Again- a tank with excellent water conditions- like those found in successful reef tanks- will not have an algae bloom using any light source. Throw nutrients into the mix, and yes, algae will grow- the rate determined by both the lighting scheme and the quality (or lack thereof) of the water. These conclusions are reached through the application of basic biological principles. Practical advice includes informing people of the correct scientific principles underlying that advice, instead of perpetuating ideas that, while sound simple and logical, aren't based on good science.

If the tank in question has nutrient issues, and sunlight, MH, or whatever, is used as a light source, nuisance algae is going to grow, assuming it exists already in the tank. If water quality is top-notch, the tank will be fine.

[kevinpo]

Many corals live in areas that receive full spectrum lighting (3 meters or less) but because of low nutrient levels and the ability of the corals to defend their space against algae little algae is present.

Different algae have different favored lighting and nutrient sources (phosphate, nitrate, etc.) This is one of the things that cause our tanks to cycle through different phases of algae over the years as the fish and corals grow and mature, feeding type and quantity changes. With so many variables it can be difficult to keep levels of a wide assortment of nutrients at acceptable levels. This resulted in the surge of the popularity of refugiums to act as a nutrient sink where the fish couldn't eat all the algae.

When Halides first came out most reefs were lit by Iwasaki 6500K and Venture 5,500K bulbs and corals (I'm talking shallow water SPS) did quite well especially in speed of growth. To the human eye the tanks appeared quite yellow and the Radium 20,000K was introduced and people reported interesting changes in color but reduced growth rates. Today we have an unbelievable amount of bulb and ballast combinations all which deliver different spikes in certain wavelengths depending on which ballast you drive it with and bulb type. The result is that the same coral will have a wide range of colors and growth rates depending on the bulb ballast combination.

In elevated nutrient closed systems over time some type of algae will manage to grow no matter what lighting type you have (except very low light). This is especially true if you are adding new corals to your tank. By that I mean ones that come with a chunk of live rock attached to the bottom of it. Tiny specs of algae can be almost impossible to detect until they grow and spread.

Light feeding, good skimming, water changes, controllable algae, and light bio loads are the best bet at keeping unwanted algae at bay.

Regards,
Kevin

[Firefish]

Yet algae blooms are still found only in areas of polluted water! Photosynthesis is still taking place even though certain wavelengths are filtered out. Again, given two locations where the only variable is water quality, large algae blooms are only going to exist in the polluted water- because algae blooms are primarily driven by high nutrients. Not any particular wavelength of light. Which brings the argument back to a basic understanding of photosynthesis and cellular respiration. Photosynthesis creates food- in the form of simple sugars. That's it.

Using your argument, I should have lots of algae growth in my main tank also, since it's the same water and light doesn't matter.

If you removed the refugium, your display tank would have nuisance algae. You've created an environment where algae growing in your refugium is at a competitive advantage over any algae floating through or existing in your display, and is able to out-compete anything in your display because your 25-watt day light lamp drives photosynthesis more efficiently than your 10-k and 14-k lamps, therefore providing more food to your refugium's hair algae and enabling cellular respiration to therefore proceed at a faster rate

thanks for proving my point once again... light does matter.


Listen, you can give all the "redundant" biology lessons you want. I'm aware of how photosynthesis works. I've never once said that you'd have algae blooms in the absence of nutrients. I've simply stated that in the presence of a nutrient rich water, light may play a role in bloom severity. Every home reef has nutrients in it's water. One feeding provides enough nutrients to support algae. So saying to remove all nutrients from your water is an unlikely scenario, because you never really will. Under full sunlight, in the presence of nutrient rich water and the absence of a refugium, you've turned your main tank into a happy home for hair algae. You can plant a seed in a high nutrient soil, but after first bud, it'll die with out light. Regardless of all the chemical steps involved with keeping a plant alive with light, here's what matters, "no light = plant death" As soon as you say a "25-watt day light lamp drives photosynthesis more efficiently" light has entered the equation and therefor... matters.

There are many steps to controlling algae blooms in a home reef, having the correct light is one of them.

Now that you've flexed your knowledge muscle... may we move on.