[scott_tess_biss]

Hello all, we need some advice, we have a 30 gal. tank set up, for the first 9mos. it was a fowlr system, we recectly up graded new lighting and added coral(frogspawn& and a green shroom) we also added a dimond goby, we lost the goby which I am sure was due to the nitire level how ever we have not been able to test the water as of yet. but we are also have problems regulating the salt content of the water when we first incorperated the new coral and the goby it was low so i added salt then it was high so obviously I added to much. my question is what can I do to make water changes less stressfull on the environment rather than adding water and then tring to get the salt equalized.

[mad_dog01]

when you add water to your sump, if you have one, it should be only water with no salt. By the sounds of it you have no sump so when water evaporates the salt stays in the tank....by adding water the salinity of the tank should stay where you had it when you did a water change. How often do you do water changes and how many gals or liters do you change? The other part of your thread says you have high nitrites, if this is correct it is deadly to fish, sounds like your tank is not fully cycled or have you added something lately like live rock that was not fully cured. If your nitrites are high I would check your amonia level as this should also be above zero which will kill inhabitants of the tank. For water changes you should check all parameters before you do the water change, when you mix the salt in the new water you need to check it with a hydrometer to ensure its within accepted ranges.....1.020-1.024. If you tank is low mix the new water on the high end of good to equalize it and reverse this process if you tank salinity is on the high side. Hope this helps

[Ninong]

Hi scott_tess_biss,



When preparing new saltwater for a water change, it is important that you test it's salinity (specific gravity) before using it. It is also important to allow the newly mixed saltwater time to age before using it. I always waited three or four days after mixing a new batch before using it. Fossa & Nilsen, in their excellent series, The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, recommend waiting a minimum of one week before using saltwater. Don't believe the instructions the manufacturers print on the bag. Freshly made up saltwater should never be used except in emergency situations.

[Ninong]

Just for clarification: You're talking about water changes, right? You're not talking about replacing evaporated water, are you? And you certainly aren't adding salt directly to your tank, are you?

I just wanted to clear up those points to make sure we're on the same page here.

[wozza]

Don't believe the instructions the manufacturers print on the bag. Freshly made up saltwater should never be used except in emergency situations.

sorry to jump in and ask another question here but, i have allways used Tropic marin salt and its says it can be used as soon as its all dissolved, i take it i should stop doing this.
also what is the theroy behind doing this?

[scott_tess_biss]

ok, thank you for the replys, and yes this cancerns water changes, the way we have been doing it, sounds like a huge no no, which I have a feeling we may end up starting all over, when water changes are being done we remove about 5 to 8 gal please remember this is a 30 gal tank. then we just ad striagh water and try to bring the salinity. boy have we got alot to learn!!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by wozza

sorry to jump in and ask another question here but, i have allways used Tropic marin salt and its says it can be used as soon as its all dissolved, i take it i should stop doing this.
also what is the theroy behind doing this?

Fossa & Nilsen are both experienced professional aquarists. Both have worked in research at public aquaria for the past two or three decades. They are widely respected as experienced, knowledgeable reefkeeping experts. In Volume One of their four-volume set, The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, they suggest that saltwater should be aged for a full week before using to allow for O2/CO2 equilibrium and for the concentration of free metal ions to be reduced. [I don't have this series anymore, I sold it to zhenya. Perhaps he can look it up for us and post their exact warning. IIRC, it's about one-third of the way through volume one.]

I'm a firm believer in going slow and, in case you didn't already know, I never accept the advice of the manufacturers on anything without double-checking it myself. For example, some manufacturers state in their printed instructions on the bag of salt mix that you should use plain tapwater. I know Instant Ocean always included that recommendation in their instructions. I don't think that's responsible advice. Even though that particular salt mix has a dechlorination agent, there are other potential risks involved in using water straight from the tap rather than R.O./D.I. water.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by scott_tess_biss

ok, thank you for the replys, and yes this cancerns water changes, the way we have been doing it, sounds like a huge no no, which I have a feeling we may end up starting all over, when water changes are being done we remove about 5 to 8 gal please remember this is a 30 gal tank. then we just ad striagh water and try to bring the salinity. boy have we got alot to learn!!

You have to mix the saltwater in a separate container. Use a heater to maintain the same water temperature as your aquarium. Add the salt mix 1/2 cup at a time, stirring for five or ten seconds after each addition. It is better to make the new saltwater slighting stronger than you want because it's easier to simply add purified freshwater later to adjust the salinity down than it is to have to add more salt mix to adjust it up. After you have added the necessary amount of salt mix, stir the container again for a good 15 to 20 seconds with a large kitchen spoon or spatula. Buy a new one and keep it aside for this purpose.

Buy one of those cheapy air pumps with flexible vinyl tubing and an airstone and then use that to aerate the water and mix it up. You could use a small powerhead for this purpose but I found that I preferred the airstone over the powerhead. It's a good idea to have a cover for the container. You don't have to lock the cover on the container, just set it loosely on top to keep dust out. After an hour or two, stir the container again for ten seconds or so. I usually didn't bother to check the salinity until the next day but you could check it anytime after the first hour or so.

How long you wait before using the new saltwater is up to you. I usually waited four or five days but sometimes only three days. I never used it before three days unless it was some sort of emergency. A couple of times I had to make up one or two gallons of saltwater in a hurry because I had miscalculated and removed too much tankwater and the aged saltwater that I added to the system was a gallon or two short of being able to restart my pump. I think that happened to me twice and both times I was only a gallon or two short. I mixed that small amount and "aged" it for about 15 minutes before adding it to my sump. I had a 120-gal tank with a 22-gal sump. I used a 20-gal white Rubbermaid Brute container and filled it with about 18 gallons of saltwater for water changes.

Make sure the container you use is USDA approved food-grade. Rubbermaid's Brute containers in white, gray and yellow meet this specification. They come in various sizes. I liked the 20-gal size in white but you could use a smaller size. I know they make them in 10-gal sizes but I don't know if they come any smaller than that. Or you could choose some other container as long as it meets food storage requirements. The reason for that is so that you won't end up with some brand new plastic container that leaches chemicals. All of those products are made from recycled plastics but the manufacturers are more careful in selecting the junk plastics for the ones that meet the USDA food storage requirements. This caution is especially important for choosing containers to store R.O./D.I. water because it will really pull stuff out of new plastic containers.

Remember, never under any circumstances add salt mix directly to your aquarium. I don't know if you're saying that you did that but I just want to make that point clear.

[wozza]

ok thats cool, i been trying to think of something to use an unused 25gal that i have laying now i have a perfectly good use for it.

should the water be kept moving whilst its sitting there?
like a power head or something.
cheers james

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by wozza

ok thats cool, i been trying to think of something to use an unused 25gal that i have laying now i have a perfectly good use for it.

An unused 25-gal what?

should the water be kept moving whilst its sitting there?
like a power head or something.

Yes.

[wozza]

An unused 25-gal what?

empty new fishtank.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by wozza

empty new fishtank.

OK.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

I don't have this series anymore, I sold it to zhenya. Perhaps he can look it up for us and post their exact warning. IIRC, it's about one-third of the way through volume one.

Your wish is my command, Ninong...

A quote directly from the book:
Sea salt mixes should never be dissolved directly in aquarium. Instead, plastic containers should be used to prepare the artificial sea water. Follow the instructions carefully in dissolving a suitable amount of the salt in the correct volume of water and let the water mature, aerating it heavily, for a week before you use it. The concentration of the free metal ions in a newly prepared water mix may be quite high, but it decreases as the water ages....

They go on further to include that quality of prepared water will depend not only on the quality of salt mix but that the quality of freshwater that being used is just as important.

[wozza]

ok thats fine, would you say that it NEEDS to aerated. like useing a veturi on a powerhead?

[Ninong]

Thanks, zhenya. I remembered that they mentioned the concentration of free metal ions but I guess I threw in the O2/CO2 equilibrium point on my own. Obviously O2/CO2 equilibrium doesn't take very long but it takes longer than the "use immediately" or "use after one hour" recommendation the manufacturers put forth.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by wozza

ok thats fine, would you say that it NEEDS to aerated. like useing a veturi on a powerhead?

Yes, it needs to be aerated. There are various ways to do that. I simply used an airstone. Some people like to use a small powerhead.

If the container is at least partially open, then any agitation of the water will allow for sufficient air exchange at the surface. You don't have to introduce air into the water with an airstone or a venturi powerhead, I just preferred using an airstone for a variety of reasons relating to my particular circumstances.

P.S. -- Some salt mixes contain a small amount of clay. (Manufacturers will deny this, of course.) This clay will settle out as a fine tan sediment on the bottom of the container provided you don't have a powerhead down there keeping it in suspension. By placing the airstone in the center of the bottom of the container (anchored with a heavy PVC ell), I managed to get a small amount of fine grained tan colored clay sedimentation in a ring around the perimeter of the bottom of the container. If you stir this up with a large spoon, or whatever, it will go back into suspension. For that reason, I didn't stir my container after the first 24 hours or so. I wanted that sedimentation (about 1 to 2 Tbsps in an 18-gal batch of saltwater) in the bottom. After two or three days, it's easy to remove the water all the way down to the bottom one or two inches in the container without disturbing the sediment, which I then discarded. This sedimentation usually doesn't show up until after at least 48 hours.

The reason I chose white Rubbermaid containers is because I wanted to be able to see anything that settled on the bottom easier.

P.P.S. -- I'm not saying you have to do it that way or that there is any risk involved if you don't do it that way. I'm just saying that that's the way I did it.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by Ninong

Thanks, zhenya. I remembered that they mentioned the concentration of free metal ions but I guess I threw in the O2/CO2 equilibrium point on my own. Obviously O2/CO2 equilibrium doesn't take very long but it takes longer than the "use immediately" or "use after one hour" recommendation the manufacturers put forth.

Yes, those recommendations are ludicrous if you have reef aquarium. My gut feeling is that they mostly speak of the fish only aquariums when they recommend using salt immediately or in one hour.
I personally always age my freshly mixed sea water for at least three days, aerating it heavily with quite a powerful pump ( Sen-600) that I drop on the bottom of container. I also open the lid partially, like you described, and use heater to keep temperature constant at the tank;s temperature. My RO/DI water is kept the same temperature( almost) as the tank's water, so keeping freshly mixed water warm soes not take too much of effort on the part of the heater( meaning it does not have to bring it up from let say 68-70 degrees to 79-80).