Tropic Eden

[rjs5134]

I've struggled to find a source for 90 lbs of Aragamax, at least for a reasonable price. Once mail order source would have cost just shy of $200 for 90lbs and local sources have only turned up 1-30lb bag. Another mail order source has recommended Tropic Eden Snow. I haven't heard or found any discussions or reviews of this product and hope someone can give me some feedback. Is this a reasonable replacement for Aragamax, or is there a reason to steer clear?

Thanks in advance.

Rob

[Ninong]

You're only about 30 miles from E.S.V. in Brooklyn: 50-lb buckets of fine grain aragonite for $28.

Here.

[rjs5134]

Ha Ha Ha, I just googled Aragonite and stumbled on E.S.V.'s website. Literally 90 seconds ago. As I read your post I thought, "got to reply with what is E.S.V.", then looked back to finish reading and realized it was E.S.V. Since I have several demolition projects in Brooklyn right now, I will have to schedule a site visit for later this week and make a stop. I'm glad you recommended them, it makes me comfortable shopping there. Thanks Ninong.

[rjs5134]

Ninong,

I just called E.S.V. and they said they no longer sell the aragonite sand and haven't for about 11 months. Guess they should update their website. They have a calcium carbonate based sand instead. Is this what I'm looking for or should I hold out for Aragamax?? Timing was almost perfect, I have a friend thats going to be 5 blocks away in about an hour.

Thanks for the info.

[Ninong]

Ninong,

I just called E.S.V. and they said they no longer sell the aragonite sand and haven't for about 11 months.

Hmmm... I didn't know that.

Guess they should update their website.

Yes.

They have a calcium carbonate based sand instead.

That statement makes no sense. All aragonite sand is calcium carbonate (CaCO3). Aragonite is just one of the crystalline forms of calcium carbonate. The others are calcite and vaterite. All three are pure calcium carbonate but the shape of the crystals is different, resulting in slightly different properties.

Is this what I'm looking for or should I hold out for Aragamax??

Aramamax is simply a brand name used by Carib-Sea to describe one of their many different aragonite sand products.

What you want is aragonite sand. The sand that E.S.V used to sell was a very nice, very fine grain aragonite sand. I have never used it myself but I know people who used it exclusively. I used the cheapy Southdown (now called Oldcastle) aragonite sand.

The major player in the market would be Carib-Sea. They sell various aragonite products. Aragamax is the name they give to their sugar-sized particle product.

There are various opinions on what particle size is best. It all depends on your personal approach to a sand bed. I could give you arguments both for and against virtually any of the products out there depending on what you want to accomplish.

I know people who have used E.S.V. oolitic aragonite sand exclusively for 6" deep sandbeds and were perfectly happy. I know people who have used Carib-Sea's seaflor select (a rather large particle size) for 3" deep sandbeds in SPS-dominated tanks with high water flow and preferred that to the finer particle size because of the strong water currents in their tanks.

And I know people who have mixed a variety of sizes together (usually with at least 60% of the finer particle stuff) to meet specific needs.

In my opinion, the closest to Southdown (assuming you can't find any of the cheapy stuff in New Jersey, which is really surprising) would be Carib-Sea's aragamax size. I wonder why you can't locate Southdown (I mean Oldcastle) at any of the Home Depots out there? Did they stop carrying it? It should be in the garden department this time of year.

Dept. of Corrections:

I'm looking at Carib-Sea's website and it appears that they have changed all their product names around again. So disregard what I said above about Seaflor select because what they're showing how is not what I remember. Or maybe it used to be called Reefflor select??? And I don't even see the name Aragamax now. Here's their website.

[rjs5134]

What a confusing hobby... Every time I think I've got the answer, another question arises. Same thing when I was looking for a skimmer. Thank you for the help. I know Aragamax is a brand name, but it seems to be the common standard for sugar fine DSB sand. At your recommendation I looked extensively for Old Castle(aka Southdown) and was told by some at this site and someone at HD that they(Oldcastle) no longer distribute that sand. I think to bring to resolution, I will take a ride to Brooklyn and pick up the sand E.S.V. sells and see how it goes. I'll be sure to post the outcome.

On another note, Carib Sea's website Specifications list states that Aragamax and other are not good for "burrowers". I'm not sure why, assuming the crystal shape does not hold up well when a burrower digs in. I have a blue dot jawfish so this is a concern. I'm hoping the sand E.S.V. sells is suitable. Any ideas?

Thank you.

Rob

[Ninong]

On another note, Carib Sea's website Specifications list states that Aragamax and other are not good for "burrowers". I'm not sure why, assuming the crystal shape does not hold up well when a burrower digs in. I have a blue dot jawfish so this is a concern. I'm hoping the sand E.S.V. sells is suitable. Any ideas?

A fine particle aragonite sand is more suitable for any sand-sifting fish or any fish, such as wrasses, that like to dig into the sand bed. So E.S.V.'s previous product would have been ideal from that standpoint. Aragamax would also be quite acceptable.

Now, as far as "burrowers" are concerned, the only thing that I can think of that Carib-Sea may be thinking of would be the fact that fish (e.g., certain gobies, jawfish, etc.) that like to live in the sandbed like to reinforce their burrows with pieces of shell, etc., for structural support. This is not really a problem. You could use any decent fine particle sand and then scatter just enough small shell pieces, etc., around the surface of the sandbed for the burrowing fish to utilize in constructing their burrows.

[rjs5134]

OK, I've had it. Maybe I'm just having a bad day, but I can't stand this. Why can't I find a simple product like Aragamax or equivalent without all the headaches. I scheduled a meeting for midtown Manhattan today with the intention of running to Brooklyn to E.S.V. to pcikup 150lbs of their sugar fine sand. Halfway across town I called and the woman told me not to come, they don't sell out of their facility, only mail order. Imagine that, I'm willing to pick-up their product and pay cash and they turn away the business. Just out of principal, I won't order from them.

Now I'm back to the same question. What Aragamax equivalent should I look for since Aragamax seems to be hard to find in any kind of quantity of 30lbs or more?? I've probably spent more than the shipping in gas already.

Thanks

Rob

[Ninong]

...with the intention of running to Brooklyn to E.S.V. to pcikup 150lbs of their sugar fine sand. Halfway across town I called and the woman told me not to come, they don't sell out of their facility, only mail order.

Wow! I didn't know that. All of the people that I know of who used the E.S.V. fine particle oolitic aragonite sand ordered it and had it shipped. The shipping runs up the price a lot.

Now I'm back to the same question. What Aragamax equivalent should I look for since Aragamax seems to be hard to find in any kind of quantity of 30lbs or more??

I just rechecked Carib-Sea's website. I guess I wasn't looking at the right page last night. Here's the appropriate page. They now refer to it as "dry aragonite." So they're still selling "Aragamax" as their sugar-sized sand and they still offer Seaflor special grade reef sand as their larger grain sand (comparable to Florida Keys live sand in particle size). The Seaflor select is a possibility but only if you're going that route, so to speak. The smaller particle size (comparable to sugar-sized Aragamax) is what most people would choose for a DSB of at least 3.5"-4" depth.

I don't understand why you can't find the various Carib-Sea products at retail stores (LFS) in your area. Any store that carries Carib-Sea substrates should be able to get anything they sell rather quickly. Maybe not???

[rjs5134]

I guess It would have been quicker, easier, less of a headache, etc., etc. had I just asked an lfs to order it for me. Sugar sized grain sand seems to be hard to come by. Larger particle size is much more readily available.

Anyhow, I think I've solved the problem. That-Fish-Place is only 148 miles from home so I will be making a road trip, possibly tomorrow if I can sell my wife on the idea. It's been confirmed, they're open and they have plenty in stock.

And until my next train wreck, thank you for your help.

Rob

[zhenya]

Wow! Sorry to hear you had soo much trouble getting sand... I'm not sure why our local Home Depot stores stoped carrying Old Castle brand of aragonite sand.
I checked store in my town and they told me that they haven't had it in a while and couldn't tell me when it would be available again.

[rjs5134]

I checked earlier this year at a number of HD's and didn't find any. Carlc said in another thread that Oldcastle stopped distributing that sand about a year and a half ago. Gene, how about you and I order a few truckloads, bag it and sell it for a reasonable price? We could probably make about $15,000 per truckload.

[Ninong]

I'm sure Gene will remember this but about five years ago Rocky (scubadude) drove to Ft. Pierce, Florida (he lives in the Port Charlotte area) and talked them into selling him two tons of Southdown for only fifty bucks! He had to shovel it himself into his pickup truck. The poor pickup truck was loaded down. I believe it was just a standard 3/4-ton pickup.

Rocky used to have a picture of his white pickup truck in this thread. It was where that second red X is today. That's because the guy who does the software upgrades for this bulletin board was "learning on the job" so to speak. He lost most of the older pics. We won't mention his name.

Anyway, there was a picture of Rocky's pickup truck piled high with beautiful white Southdown aragonite sand (with a shovel stuck in the sand) that he got for only forty or fifty bucks. He talked the people at the Southdown facility there into selling it to him for his backyard beach volleyball court or something like that.

[rjs5134]

See, that's my point... Even one ton for $50 is only 2.5cents/lb and the cheapest I've found it via mail order is about .50/lb. That's a gross of about $950/ton, less overhead and bagging costs and the rest is gravy. You and I are local Gene, sounds like a match made in heaven.

Have a great Fourth.

[rjs5134]

Alright Ninong and Gene, it's done. I drove to Lancaster and spent the morning at That-Fish-Place today. I picked up the sand and a few other needed dry-goods.

On another note, that place is huge!!! I wasn't overly impressed with the marine livestock, but for dry goods and reptiles/amphibians, it can' t get much better. Oh, they had a nice stock of live rock. I will definately go back despite the 2.5 hour ride.

Thanks for all the input.