temperature

[fergo]

Hi all,

Im getting some very conflicting stories about temperature of a tank with coral. I have some tangs, and lion fish and want to add some coral. Now one guy says 24.5 degrees C and the next says 26 C ???

WHat do you guys run your tanks at?

[Ninong]

I like 26 - 28 C.

Check out this article.

[FireEater]

I used to run 79F but have recently started to increase temp. Last month I raised my chiller up to 80F and will raised it again to 81F, until I get to maybe 82F.

There has been lots of talk about the reefs being in the low 80's and how we keep our tanks in the upper 70's. I figure once I get to about 82F, then my chiller will not have to work so hard to keep it so cool. Might actually save a little on the electric bill.

I'm also doing this over a period of months just to make sure everything acclimates well. I don't want to take a chance to put anything in shock from a sudden increase.

One drawback I see is that I will not have any wiggle room if power goes out or chiller fails on me. The temp will already be kinda high and it will not take much to send everything over the edge.

[Ninong]

One drawback I see is that I will not have any wiggle room if power goes out or chiller fails on me. The temp will already be kinda high and it will not take much to send everything over the edge.

If you're running the tank at 83 degrees Fahrenheit and something happens to cause it to spike up to say 86 degrees F (30 C), that won't be as traumatic for the corals as it would be if your tank had been running at say 78 degrees F and then spiked up to 86 F.

Running the tank at a higher standard operating temperature makes the corals less likely to freak out if the temp goes up a few degrees. I never had problems with 86 F (30 C) but I did have problems when the water got above 88 F (31 C). I was running without a chiller, which is really impossible down here.

With a good chiller, I think a good maximum water temperature would be 83 F. That would be a very good, safe maximum temperature that wouldn't hurt anything. I would probably set the chiller to maintain 80 F in the winter time and 83 F in the summer. If you want to set it the same year-round, just set it on 82 F and forget it.

[FireEater]

If you want to set it the same year-round, just set it on 82 F and forget it.

I think I will shoot for that, thanks.

[fergo]

thanks guys will make it happen

[fly guy]

Im a big believer in letting them swing. In fact i use controllers to intentioanlly swing them 79/80- 83 daily.

Like ninong says...it makes the entire system much more resilient for when things do go wrong, and if you happen to ship corals much it makes them ship much better IMO.

Temp swings of 6 degrees on the natural reefs are commonplace

[Ninong]

Im a big believer in letting them swing. In fact i use controllers to intentioanlly swing them 79/80- 83 daily.

Like ninong says...it makes the entire system much more resilient for when things do go wrong, and if you happen to ship corals much it makes them ship much better IMO.

Temp swings of 6 degrees on the natural reefs are commonplace

Just to be clear, I'm not in favor of daily temperature swings in a reef aquarium. Unfortunately, if you don't have a chiller, they will happen. Temperature stability is an important goal for the safe management of a reef tank. A daily swing of less than 2 degrees Fahrenheit would be much better than anything greater than that in captivity.

A seasonal temperature swing of four or five degrees Fahrenheit would be fine, assuming you have the equipment to control your temperature. With the proper equipment, you could even mimic natural seasonal temperature swings in the tropics provided you didn't emulate the extremes. A nice range might be 79-80 degrees Fahrenheit in the 'winter' months, gradually increasing to 83-84 degrees Fahrenheit in the 'summer' months.

Combining natural water temperature cycles with natural moonlight cycles could induce spawning, if that's your goal. A fixed-intensity nightlight over the tank that is on for a fixed period every night does not constitute a moonlight. A moonlight, to be called that, must vary in intensity to match natural cycles and it must 'rise' and 'set' in accordance with natural cycles. Anything less is just a nightlight and could very well confuse the tank's inhabitants.

The following chart of water temperature at Fiji gives a good idea of what is natural for the tropics. Maintaining your reef tank at say 75 F cannot be considered "natural," but that was the common advice 10 or 12 years ago. It looks like a better choice might be anywhere between 79 to 83 F, +/- a degree. You might conclude from this chart that temps below 80 F represent winter and temps above 82 F represent summer.

From NAIA:

[fly guy]

Just to be clear, I'm not in favor of daily temperature swings in a reef aquarium.

oh...then i guess I mistated my first post as I very much do believe in daily swings of a few degrees for the reasons i mentioned above

[Ninong]

oh...then i guess I mistated my first post as I very much do believe in daily swings of a few degrees for the reasons i mentioned above

I know you do. I just didn't want anyone to think that I agreed with you.

[Ninong]

Temp swings of 6 degrees on the natural reefs are commonplace

Daily temperature swings of 6 degrees Fahrenheit on the natural reefs are not commonplace at all. Daily temperature swings are virtually nonexistent, unless you're measuring water temperature in tidepools or maybe an extremely shallow lagoon.

Water temperature changes are much more gradual, which is why many reef corals can survive several days exposure to water temps as high as 90 degrees Fahrenheit without bleaching. Bleaching requires sustained temps above 88F (31C) for a period of at least two or three weeks; and if the higher temps are combined with any other stressors, such as an exceptionally low tide or extremely heavy rainfall, the bleaching is more likely to occur.

Corals can protect themselves from the increased exposure to UV radiation that results from exceptionally low tides or even exposure to the air (for SPS that live close to the surface) but their UV-protection mechanisms begin to break down when water temps exceed 31C.

[fly guy]

I know you do. I just didn't want anyone to think that I agreed with you.

;)

[fly guy]

Ninong......I want to go into where you contradict what i thought was fact as far as the natural reef temp swings. I have read many times that as the tide goes in and out.....all parts of the reef can fluctuate quite many degrees daily, more so of course when a lagoonal area is near.

A quick google couldnt provide me with anything. Just wondering if you can provide more on that as i just want to know.

I also think that any temp swings are a much different deal in BB systems vs dsb systems. I currently run both and have learned that the BB system can handle many things that a dsb tank could never dream of.

Although...a bb tank cant handle 100 degrees very well at all i recently witnessed...but thats another story

[greenbean36191]

I recommend daily swings. They are the norm on reefs and they happen quickly. Unless you get into temp extremes, no swing is going to harm a normal reef animal. However, it has been shown that you can acclimatize them to stable temperatures and then severely stress them when they experience swings or high temps. I can think of absolutely no benefit to keeping a stable temp and a few draw backs.

[Ninong]

Ninong......I want to go into where you contradict what i thought was fact as far as the natural reef temp swings. I have read many times that as the tide goes in and out.....all parts of the reef can fluctuate quite many degrees daily, more so of course when a lagoonal area is near.

As I mentioned in my previous reply, wide daily temperature swings are possible on shallow water reefs and in tidal pools but far less common and much less extreme on reef faces and at depths.

Not everything we keep in our little water boxes comes from the exact same spot on the reef. For that reason, we should be careful to not try to mimic the natural extremes. In my opinion, a daily range of 2 degrees Fahrenheit is adequate to provide a natural diurnal fluctuation. A seasonal range of 4 to 5 degrees Fahrenheit is more than enough to make you think you are providing a natural seasonal environment.

It is true that you can have extreme daily temperature swings in very shallow waters but that is the exception, not the rule. If all of your corals in your tank came from such an environment and you want to mimic it, then vary your temperature from 78 F in the morning to 89 F in the afternoon, but be sure to vary your salinity, too, to mimic tropical rains over shallow lagoons.

Continued heavy rainfall can have a drastic effect on salinity over very shallow reefs. There is a drastic seasonal difference in salinity in the Gulf of Thailand between the monsoon season and the dry season.

Over the GBR, the daily temperature swings and salinity swings are limited to shallow water and tidal pools. Deeper reefs are much less affected. And the freshwater tends to float on top of the denser seawater until it gradually mixes. Within 12 hours or so of a heavy downpour, you probably won't be able to measure any difference. This is not to say that seasonal differences don't build up over several weeks in areas that are subjected to constant daily downpours during the monsoon.

I don't have any of my reef hobby books anymore. I sold them all. The best reference for this sort of information might be Dr. Yuri Sorokin's Coral Reef Ecology. He had tables with the actual temperature measurements at various locations on the GBR, including daily and seasonal variations.

A quick google couldnt provide me with anything. Just wondering if you can provide more on that as i just want to know.

NOAA probably has water temperature measurements for various locations around the globe. I've never bothered to look there but I'm sure they probably have a lot of them. The site that I linked has measurements for the waters near Fiji. They may have the daily measurements but I haven't bothered to look. (P.S. -- OK, I just looked. They have six monitors at various locations in Fiji. They record the water temperature every hour. They have been doing this for more than ten years now. Their monitors are probably placed at a depth of five meters but I couldn't find that on their site. I couldn't find any of the raw data either to see what the daily temperature variations might be.)

I also think that any temp swings are a much different deal in BB systems vs dsb systems.

A DSB has a higher oxygen demand because it is alive. In the event of a power outage, it would be critical to maintain adequate water movement.

I currently run both and have learned that the BB system can handle many things that a dsb tank could never dream of.

And a DSB can do many things that a BB tank cannot. For example, I never once cleaned my sandbed in my 6" DSB during the three years I had my tank running before I sold it. And the DSB was in perfect condition when we took the tank down. In fact, the guys who purchased it insisted on saving all of the sand instead of just the top 1-2" as I had suggested.

Although...a bb tank cant handle 100 degrees very well at all i recently witnessed...but thats another story

My experience was that any temperature above 88 degrees Fahrenheit was going to cause problems. I routinely ran the tank at 85 F during the summer because I didn't have a chiller. I will never attempt another tank without a chiller again. When Hurricane Katrina hit us, I was able to keep the pumps and the actinics going but we didn't have enough generator capacity to run the central air-conditioning. On the third day, the temperature in Southeast Louisiana hit 98 F with high humidity. My tank's water temperature went above 90 F and I had a lot of problems.

[Ninong]

OK, here you go: NOAA buoys in real time. Just click on a buoy (one of the green dots that are in good working condition) of your choice and check the readings. I think they have one at Davies reef and one at Heron Island on the GBR but I don't know how to find them.

That gives you the water temp at various depths, such as 1m, 5m, 25m, 50m, 75m, 100m, etc. Notice that there is usually less than 1C difference between the SST at 1m and at 50m. I believe they consider anything from 1m to 50m to be SST (sea surface temperature).

You could check those various buoys frequently to chart the fluctuations over time for various locations. They also have charts that give warning of impending coral bleaching events by tracking areas of hot water (greater than 1C above normal maximum).

[fly guy]

And a DSB can do many things that a BB tank cannot. For example, I never once cleaned my sandbed in my 6" DSB during the three years I had my tank running before I sold it. And the DSB was in perfect condition when we took the tank down. In fact, the guys who purchased it insisted on saving all of the sand instead of just the top 1-2" as I had suggested.

.

I didnt make my original BB comment as a dsb vs bb debate. Just an observation. Both undoubtedly have their merits.

However, Im not sure I follow how your example is something that a BB tank cant do. I NEVER have to clean the floor fo my bb tank tank nor mess with the sand if the tank were to need moved.

On my dsb tank i have good flow throughout 100% of the sandbed as well, and it doesnt need cleaned, but i surely would never encourage anybody to reuse more than a cup or two to seed. If given the opportunity to start fresh why start with something that has inevitable phosphates in it and a already compromised lifespan??

Sorry to get OT. Just dont understand how your example is a benefit to a dsb. vs a BB, not to say that there arent some.

[Ninong]

Most people with BB tanks say they have to remove detritus and perform other housekeeping chores. I never, ever touched my DSB. It took care of itself, all by itself.

I didn't encourage them to use all of the sandbed, they just decided to do that. That's because the guy who purchased it brought two of his helpers with him and they both had reef tanks.

I'm not sure I agree with you on the "compromised lifespan" comment or on the "inevitable phosphates" comment. Granted my DSB was only up for a little over three years when the tank was sold but the guys who removed the sandbed chose to use all of it once they noticed that it was full of life and there was no noticeable smell at all, even all the way down to the bottom.

I know of several hobbyists who have maintained reef tanks with DSBs in excess of 12 years without any problems, so I'm not sure that problems are "inevitable." There are those who argue that a DSB can run indefinitely without problems. That's always a nice topic for debate.

This reefkeeper has been keeping reef tanks for more than 30 years now. He collects all of his own seawater and all of his own "powder coral sand." His previous 630-gal reef tank was in continuous operaton for 15 years when he took it down to move everything to his new 630-gal tank in 2000. He used DSBs in both tanks. The DSB in the new tank (since around 1999 or 2000) varies in depth from 4" to 10". It's deliberately sloped.

This reefkeeper has been keeping reef tanks for more than 20 years. He has always employed a 3" DSB in both his reef tanks and his FOWLR tanks. Presently he's running a 300-gal FOWLR tank and a 718-gal reef tank. The 300-gal tank was previously a reef tank. He moved all of the inhabitants into the new 718-gal reef tank about seven years ago and turned the 300-gal into a FOWLR. He has never had any problems with his sandbeds. Photos of his 300-gal reef tank (from the 1990's) are featured in several different books by various hobby authors.

[fly guy]

We should let this go as we could talk about it til the cows come home and it wouldnt be anything new. I will just say that very few reefkeepers have their systems set up properly and husbandry habits in check enough so that a dsb wont fill up and eventually become a problem, and I did put more than a little bit of effort in seeing that I dont ever have to siphon the floor anywhere of my BB tank. and not do anything maintenance wise to the tank besides make sure the nooks and crannieds in the rockwork are blown out at water change time.

Back to the topic...that link you provided doesnt have any clickable links near any reefs that i can tell. And the rest of the data is 5 day averages.....not daily swings. To be sure, im just trying to prove or disprove what i have heard many times over. Greenbean seems to believe it as well. maybe he can provide some data to support his case. I dont think it will change my mind that keeping the temp exactly the same is a good thing, but it will prevent me from ever saying again that 6 degree swings in the wild are "commonplace" ;)

[Ninong]

There are sources online (possibly NOAA or AIMS) that do provide real time readings from buoys on SST, salinity, etc. I remember coming across them in the past.

I think the point I was trying to make was that a 6-degree daily swing in a captive reef tank is not a good idea no matter what may or may not happen in nature. I may have mistated what I meant by temperature stability in captive reef systems because I'm more in line with what greenbean is saying except that I wouldn't push it beyond a 2-degree daily swing if I had a chiller. I experienced 4-degree daily swings on my tank because I didn't have a chiller.

The daily swings in nature can be extreme in some environments but not everything we keep in our tanks comes from that sort of environment or the same environment; therefore, it makes sense for us to moderate our parameters to satisfy everything in the tank.

Obviously no matter what we do, we can't match natural water flow conditions or the dilution factor of the ocean. Many hobbyists keep animals from the Red Sea in the same tank with animals from Indonesia and the Philippines. The salinity in the Red Sea averages about 39 PSU, but it can run 42 PSU at the northern end. That's a lot higher than the 35 PSU average for the waters around most Pacific and Indian Ocean tropical reefs. And the Red Sea receives a lot of sand blown onto it from the surrounding deserts. I doubt we would want to mimic that.