Snails still dying

[astokl12000]

All,

Thank you for all the help with the posts.

I recently posted regarding snails dying in my tank. Since, I received some good advice about measurements and aclimation by drip process. All measurements are fine PH 8.2, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 10, Amonia 0, salinity 1.024, temp 75F.

I purchased 5 turbo snails three days ago, aclimated them with a drip over 3 hours and I think they are all about dead.

ANY HELP IS APPRECIATED. Running out of explanations.

Thank you all in advance,

Adam

[Ninong]

Is your 210-gal tank a glass tank?

Did you buy it new or used?

[astokl12000]

Ninong,

It is glass and I purchased it brand new.

I read a lot over the last few days about copper contamination. Could that be it? Would it still make sense if my crabs are doing well?

I used the metal pipe clamps for some of th plumbing connections. Not sure it that could be contributing to the prrblem.

Thanks,

Adam

[Ninong]

Metal clamps on the outside of vinyl tubing shouldn't cause any problems. The problems that some people run into when setting up their first reef tank system is that they make the mistake of using brass plumbing fittings, such as brass gate valves. A mistake of that magnitude can be deadly.

Copper at extremely low levels can cause problems for invertebrates, starting with snails and polychaete worms. Obviously the reason I asked if the tank was new was because some folks who purchased used glass tanks that were previously used as freshwater tanks have experienced problems with snails caused by the previous owner's use of copper-based medications. This thread from last year is typical of that situation.

If copper is not suspected, then the next thing to consider is the acclimation process. I always like to test the salinity of the water the snails were being held in (or the shipping water if purchased online) to get an idea of what I'm facing as far as acclimation. The most important factor in acclimating snails is the difference in salinity. The greater the difference, the longer and slower the acclimation process must be. It is sometimes necessary to drag this process out for 8 or 10 hours with snails if the difference in salinity warrants such an extended acclimation process.

There are other methods of acclimating some snails but that's a topic for another thread.

[astokl12000]

I am sorry for all the questions but really want to get to the bottom of this problem. Few more questions:

Would you still think it is copper problem is my crabs are doing just fine?

Also, is there a copper test you would recoment? In one of the threads it said that the typical tests would not be able to detect low levels of copper.

I tested the water in the store with our refractometer and it showed 1.021 salinity. Mine is at 1.025. How long would you recomend the aclimation process to be? I did three hours this last time.

I did not test pH and calcium. Could those two contrinute to snails dying in a day?

Thank you for all your help,

Adam

[Ninong]

Would you still think it is copper problem is my crabs are doing just fine?

I never did think it was a copper problem. I was just asking questions so that we could rule that out. If it were a copper problem, it's possible your snails could have been affected before your hermit crabs but since you say the snails are dying within a day or two, then it's obviously not a copper problem if any other inverts in the tank are unaffected because copper levels high enough to kill off the snails that quickly should cause problems for other inverts, too.

Also, is there a copper test you would recoment? In one of the threads it said that the typical tests would not be able to detect low levels of copper.

There may be some copper tests that are sensitive enough to detect very low levels of copper but most of the typical hobby test kits are designed to test copper at levels that are commonly employed in fish therapy. Some inverts can suffer damage at copper levels as low as the low ppb range. Sometimes the problem turns out to be that the glass tank was purchased used and that it was previously used as a freshwater tank that was treated with copper. In a couple of rare instances, I have read on other boards of hobbyists who purchased used live rock from someone who had previously used it in an FOWLR tank where they had treated the tank with copper medications. That would have been a very serious mistake but some people have actually done that. That live rock will have copper adsorbed to the calcium carbonate rock and that copper will be gradually released into the water column over a long period of time.

I tested the water in the store with our refractometer and it showed 1.021 salinity. Mine is at 1.025. How long would you recomend the aclimation process to be? I did three hours this last time.

I wouldn't purchase snails that had been kept in a holding tank with specific gravity of 1.021. Many LFS keep their fish at such low salinity levels for various reasons, the primary one being saving on the cost of salt, but most of them do keep their inverts at a specific gravity of at least 1.023 or 1.024. The correct specific gravity would be at least 1.025.

To answer your question, I suppose that a slow acclimation of about 10 hours might be sufficient to bridge the gap between 1.021 SG and 1.025 SG.

I'm not saying that this is your problem. I'm just saying that an acclimation longer than 3 hours would have been better in this situation.

I did not test pH and calcium. Could those two contrinute to snails dying in a day?

Ideally you would want all of the various water parameters to match as closely as possible. This is virtually impossible in real life. With snails, the most important consideration is salinity.

[astokl12000]

Thank you Ninong. I will do some further testing and hopefully get this to work. Extrimely helpful.

[Ninong]

I take it you don't suspect your live rock, right?

If you are not doing so, try running carbon in your sump. Just get some good quality GAC (granular activated carbon) and put about a cup of it in a mesh bag and place it somewhere in the sump where the water flows through it. You might want to leave that in there for three or four weeks straight, then replace it with fresh carbon.

Or, you might want to throw a poly-filter in your sump where the water will have to flow through it. These are made by a company called Poly-Bio-Marine. In fact, you could run carbon and a poly filter if you want to. In particular, watch the white poly filter to see what color it turns, if any other than just plain dark over time. If it turns bluish, that's copper. I don't think it will because I don't think you have copper but you never know. You can cut a piece off the end of the poly-filter after the surface has darkened to see if it's dark all the way through or not. If it's still white inside, it's still OK to continue using it. Once it gets dark all the way through, it's time to discard it.

P.S. -- The poly-filter is the best thing I can think of right now to remove any possible metals contamination.

BTW, you don't have any aluminum in contact with your tankwater, do you? That's another no-no.

[astokl12000]

It should bot be the Live Rock I hope. I purchased ot from Pet Supplies, Dog Supplies, Cat Supplies, Pet Meds & Pet Products: Drs. Foster & Smith Pet Supplies. I also do nto have any aluminium in contact with water.

As far as carbon bag, what will that do exactly? Also, as far as poly-filter, can you purchase it in any stores or it is on-line only product?

Thanks,

[Ninong]

Yes, you can usually find Poly-filters at most LFS but they're cheaper online. Both carbon and Poly-filters will remove various things that can be detrimental. There are some who run carbon 24/7 and others who run it only for about two or three days once a month. There are also some who never run it.

Poly-filters should not be run while you are dosing organic compounds such as vitamins, etc. If you plan on adding something like that, remove the Poly-filter for about 48 hours.

Anyway, it's just a suggestion. Add the carbon and/or a Poly-filter and see it that helps.

P.S. -- Your live rock should be OK. I was just wanting to make sure you didn't get it second-hand from somebody getting out of the hobby after he screwed up. That has been known to happen. I know for a fact that some people who posted online about problems that turned out to be caused by dosing copper medications in their reef tanks turned around and sold all of their stuff, INCLUDING the live rock, after we told them the live rock was ruined.

P.P.S. -- Helpful hint: If you are ever thinking about buying live rock from someone on one of the boards, run a search on all of that person's posts over the previous several months to see if you see any posts about a tank crash, etc. I know of two hobbyists whose tanks crashed due to copper problems, who later sold everything on one of the boards without disclosing the fact that the live rock had been contaminated with copper. That was a few years back.

[Ninong]

Wait a week or two after you start running carbon and/or a Poly-filter and then try buying maybe just three or four snails, acclimating them very slowing over maybe as much as 6-8 hours, and then see if they survive.

If it were me, I think I would definitely get the Poly-filter because that could cover a wide range of unknowns.

[Ninong]

Other mysterious snail deaths that I have read about online turned out to be caused by young children dropping pennies into the aquarium. Dropping something like a screw won't cause problems unless it is a brass screw.

[astokl12000]

Ninong,

Thank you. This is all extrimely helpful. Thank you for all your knowledge and time.

Adam