Brass Fitting Bad News for Aquarium?

[RetiredLTC]

Without thinking, I added a brass fixture to facilitate tube placement on my pump. That was 2 months ago. During the past month, I have lost all my coral trees, mushrooms, etc..., as well as most of my crabs, and all my snails. I have lost one fish (pajama cardinal), and a senior anemone. I bought new snails 2 days ago. They died 3 hours after I put them in. It was then that I found an old thread here on copper...

I went to my LFS today, where they used a spectrophotometric assay showing I had 0.19 ppm Cu in the water. I placed charcoal and poly filters (never really needed these filters before...my tank is about 6 years old, and has been relatively trauma-free).

I have never used copper solutions in my tank...My only exposure would be the metal fitting....

The LFS says that they have converted some previous "fish-only" tanks, (where they would dose up to 0.20 ppm copper preventively) to coral-containing tanks...

Is there hope of rehabilitating the aquarium to support corals?

Thanks.

Bill

[salt-rookie]

Brass is copper and zink alloy! Bad choice...BRIGHT SIDE? Lessons learned the hard way we NEVER forget!

[redvipe2010]

If I remember correctly, the LR is likely doomed from the copper. I would definately research that before adding any more live stock.

[RetiredLTC]

Thanks....I understand that Cu can adsorb onto LR and sand...If I do serial water changes, and then change substrate and LR (ouch!), I wonder if that would be enough to make the tank able to support reef growth?

If LFS dose up their fish-only tanks to the level of therapeutic Cu I now have, is that suggestive that my fish may continue to live without adverse affects, or is the form of Cu I have, direct from metal contamination, a more problematic situation for even the fish?

Thanks!

Bill

[Minh Nguyen]

You may want to replace everything including the plumbing, pumps. I would even seriously consider replacing the tank.

[Poseidon]

Here is a search of Reefland using "Brass", make sure to read the post by "Boostable" and his 220 gallon tank.

I would trash the Rock, Sand, and plumbing for sure. The tank can be cleaned, but it is a tedious process. I am sorry for your loss, I wish I could offer you a better solution.

[Poseidon]

Oh BTW !!! Make yourself comfortable!

[RetiredLTC]

Many thanks! You folks are great.

I may try to establish a new, mini-aquarium with new substrate, live rock, etc...and transfer my fish into it. That will onbiously take a few weeks to get established (will the Bio Balls be OK after exposure to the Cu?...Does Cu absorb into plastic?) Then, I can reconsider that new cherry-wood aquarium and cabinet...I just want to make sure my currect fish get into it...I am going to aggressively bring down the free Cu as much as possible with water changes, filters and carbon......Evidently there is a product called CupriSorb out there, as well?

Any thoughts on whether the fish are actually going to show chronic effects of heavy metal poisoning, or if I may be under that threshold?

Thanks!

Bill

[Ninong]

Any thoughts on whether the fish are actually going to show chronic effects of heavy metal poisoning, or if I may be under that threshold?

Exposure to copper, even at therapeutic levels, does have an undesirable effect on the fishes' immune systems and reproductive systems. Some experts no longer recommend copper for that reason, even for treatment of disease, unless it is the remedy of last resort.

The levels you experienced (0.19 ppm) are in the therapeutic range for fish. That's not high enough to kill fish but more than high enough to kill off just about any invertebrates. Levels as low as 3-10 ppb can harm invertebrates.

It is difficult to predict what will happen with your remaining fish. Hopefully they will all live a long life. However, I would never purchase fish from an LFS that runs copper in their fish-holding tanks (like some do) because I am convinced that exposure to copper is harmful long-term.

As far as what you should do now to clean up your equipment, that's a difficult question to answer. If you have read some of our previous discussions on this topic, you already know what I'm talking about. There is no question whatsoever about the fact that any calcareous surfaces (live rock and aragonite sediments) must now be discarded if you hope to keep invertebrates. The glass walls of the tank have adsorbed copper and this copper will be gradually released over a long period of time -- many weeks -- unless you do something to decontaminate the glass. The most extreme method is too dangerous and labor intensive as far as I'm concerned. I would rather just sell off the tank to someone setting up a fish-only system and start over with a new tank. However, there are those who say that this is unnecessary -- that a thorough cleaning with bleach and multiple rinses will be sufficient. They are probably correct. That's probably sufficient unless you are shooting for absolutely zero copper contamination.

I'm not going to speculate on what you should do to clean up any of the other equipment. You have to decide how far you want to go with this clean up business. I think most of your equipment can be reused. Glass is worse than plastic as far as copper contamination is concerned.

P.S. -- Retired LTC in what, the Air Force?

[RetiredLTC]

I have read more on copper during the past 12 hours than I have during the previous half-century! You have had many patient, well-documented posts. I truly appreciate the great answers. If I had known these things 2 months ago, I would be so much better off today...

Is brass contamination more complicated and diffiocult than just copper contamination? I think I had read some comments that loosely suggested that...

I was only asking about the bioballs because I was hoping to accelerate my cyling of a new mini-aquarium that I can dump inhabitants into while I clean (or, more likely replace and establish) my 75 gallon set-up...I've had a few of these fish for about 5 years, and I want them to see the seasons change a few more times...

And, retired Army...Medical Service Corps! Thanks for asking!

Bill

[Ninong]

Is brass contamination more complicated and diffiocult than just copper contamination? I think I had read some comments that loosely suggested that...

It's the copper that is the problem. Brand new brass fittings seem to release a lot of copper when exposed to saltwater. In the past seven years, I have read many posts by new hobbyists who experienced severe problems because they inadvertently used brass fittings in their setups. The other source of copper contamination problems is when people purchase used glass tanks without cleaning them properly in advance of using them as reef tanks. If those tanks had ever been treated with copper medications, then copper may be adsorbed to the glass surfaces and that could cause problems for inverts.

I was only asking about the bioballs because I was hoping to accelerate my cyling of a new mini-aquarium that I can dump inhabitants into while I clean (or, more likely replace and establish) my 75 gallon set-up...I've had a few of these fish for about 5 years, and I want them to see the seasons change a few more times...

I've never used bioballs myself for any reason. However, I see no harm in using them temporarily in this new temporary holding tank for your fish while you dismantle the current aquarium.

And, retired Army...Medical Service Corps! Thanks for asking!

The only reason I guessed Air Force was because of San Antonio.

[Minh Nguyen]

...

Is brass contamination more complicated and diffiocult than just copper contamination? I think I had read some comments that loosely suggested that...

....

Bill

Bill,
Brass contamination is copper contamination. Anything inexpensive, just get new ones. Discard the rock and sand. You may want to reuse the pump if you clean it out. If this is me, knowing what I know now, I would not only use the light and stand.
I had copper contamination in my tank back in the early 2001. Not anywhere near the amount you have but enough. My Rio pump crack and salt water got into the motor coil. All my coral bleached and shrimp died but fish were OK. I tried to save the tank with lots of water change, but the tank was never the same again. I even tried later to discard all the sand and rock. Re-setup then tank, but did not change the plumping or pump but this did not work either. I sold it, the whole set up back to the LFS for 1/10 of what I pay for it. I just wanted it out of my house and restart again with a new setup.

[salt-rookie]

TO ME...This entire thread begs an OBVIOUS question......WHY in an age of nylon, plastics and a plethera of inert synthetic materials, does the brass airline fitting still exist? They stopped making lead drinking water pipe with the advent of PVC, etc. WHY???

[Poseidon]

TO ME...This entire thread begs an OBVIOUS question......WHY in an age of nylon, plastics and a plethera of inert synthetic materials, does the brass airline fitting still exist? They stopped making lead drinking water pipe with the advent of PVC, etc. WHY???

I think brass AIR line is OK with a Fresh water tank, however this instance was a Brass water line, I'll bet the LTC picked it up at Lowes or HD, and just had a momentary lapse in judgement.

[Ninong]

I think brass AIR line is OK with a Fresh water tank, however this instance was a Brass water line, I'll bet the LTC picked it up at Lowes or HD, and just had a momentary lapse in judgement.

It's not a "lapse in judgement," it's a lack of information. People with no experience in the hobby are not likely to realize that brass fittings will release copper into saltwater and that copper at very, very low levels can be toxic to invertebrates.

[Minh Nguyen]

Salt-rookie,
Many of us, whatever good enough to to into our mouth is good enough for our reeftank. Brass fitting is widely use in our house so I am not surprise that it is use sometime in the aquarium. My LFS use a brass fitting when I asked him to built a Ca reactor for me until I told him to replace it. I am sure he did not do that again after I point it out to him.
Brass fitting also use in fresh water tank to control parasite on fish. (Not that this is what I do, just some people do it). Copper waterline is still widely use. It is much less likely to break in freezing condition.
Lead is one thing copper is another. Lead is toxic to human while copper is not. Who would want a PVC kitchen faucet? I know that I would like brass or stainless for my bathroom or kitchen.

[RetiredLTC]

You're all correct. Even though I've been doing this for several years, this was not something that ever came up on my radar. Total lack of information and education of dangers of brass on my part...It's hard to put a positive spin on a lesson this tough... The error was mine, but I had a lot of invert life that paid the price. Totally bites.

The education you've all provided has been totally excellent. Some prospective or new hobbyist reading this will learn from my loss, I hope.

Bill

[salt-rookie]

Great attutude, Colonel!! Salute!!

[Poseidon]

It's not a "lapse in judgement," it's a lack of information.

I agree, I just didn't phrase it as eloquently as you can!

[Poseidon]

You're all correct. Even though I've been doing this for several years, this was not something that ever came up on my radar. Total lack of information and education of dangers of brass on my part...It's hard to put a positive spin on a lesson this tough... The error was mine, but I had a lot of invert life that paid the price. Totally bites.

The education you've all provided has been totally excellent. Some prospective or new hobbyist reading this will learn from my loss, I hope.

Bill

I am glad that you found a great source of information! I am certain that you won't let this type of error ever happen again.

As stated above, FANTASTIC attitude!!! I am sure you will be a very positive influence to others that may come to you for future advice! (It happens, all the time!)