On a sand hunt -help

[Nikki]

I felt prepared tonight to go on a sand hunt and have come back sandless. My local hardware store had 'Mr Garden Play Sand' with absolutely no indication of what it is made of on the bag or on-line. HD had 'Pavestone High Desert Play Sand' which has a lot of print, but only a warning on the back that it might have a 'small' amount of crystalline silica in it, but no indication of source or makeup otherwise on bag or on-line. I also have some play sand I ordered for the kids still in a bag from Safe Sand Company (it was quite expensive and I am a sucker I now see :-)) which I am learning is a feldspathic sand produced as a byproduct of mica mining which makes me think I must stay away from it from the posts I have read.

I would really like to stay away from silica based sand as my belief is that if it is not safe for my children to breathe, why would it be safe for my fish to live in an environment with it present.

Any thoughts, pointers, etc? I am now thinking I should just go to my LFS and fork out some dough.

Thanks,
Nikki

[Ninong]

It's OK to use quartz sand (silica sand) if you want to in a marine aquarium but I would definitely stay away from feldspar. I wouldn't personally use quartz sand but some people do. It's just something I don't care for in a marine aquarium.

The reason you saw a warning label about silica dust is because there will be a certain amount of silica dust in a bag of quartz (SiO2) sand just from the sand grains rubbing up against each other in handling. Silica dust, if inhaled, is carcinogenic to humans. If you choose to use quartz sand for a marine aquarium, you could always rinse it well before using it to remove any dust.

Again, clean quartz sand will not cause problems in a marine tank. However, there is always the possibility that it might be polluted with foreign particles -- tar, etc. And maybe it will contain a certain amount of feldspar, a silica compound that more readily dissolves in saltwater than pure quartz (SiO2). For all practical purposes, we can say that pure quartz sand does not dissolve in saltwater.

I wouldn't use quartz sand but if you want to use it, go ahead. Just don't buy anything that has anything to do with feldspar and rinse your sand before using it. It if says "play sand" on the bag, then it's heat sterilized but that's about it. Almost all play sand is quartz sand. What you probably want, if you're like me, is calcareous sand (CaCO3). I prefer aragonite but calcite is also acceptable. Aragonite will dissolve starting at a pH of 7.7, whereas calcite doesn't begin to dissolve until pH 7.4. Both are caclium carbonate (CaCO3), just different crystalline structures.

Some Home Depot stores along the East Coast used to carry Southdown Tropical Play Sand from the Caribbean. That was aragonite sand. Then the Southdown name was changed to Oldcastle. I don't know if that nice cheapy aragonite sand is available anymore or not. If not, you can always buy the expensive aragonite sand from your LFS. That's sort of up to you. Remember that "play sand" can be either quartz sand or aragonite sand. If you pour a teaspoon of vinegar onto aragonite sand, it will fizz as carbon dioxide is released. You could also put a tablespoon of aragonite sand into a cup of vinegar and watch it dissolve. You can use muriatic acid instead of vinegar if you want a faster reaction. Quartz sand is unaffected by vinegar or muriatic (hydrochloric) acid.

I'll ask zhenya if he knows whether the cheapy aragonite is still available in your area.



P.S. -- The reason you saw a warning about silica dust is because California's Prop. 65 law requires warning labels on dozens of products that are known to be carcinogenic to humans. I'm not sure if any other states have followed suit with similar laws yet (California's law was passed more than 10 years ago) but sometimes manufacturers who intend to offer their products for sale in California will put the same warning on the packaging even if it's for sale outside California.

[Nikki]

Ninong, thanks for the great and fast response. I am pretty set on the calcium sand as it 'seems' more natural to me. Thanks for the additional info on the feldspar as that wasn't seeming right to me either. If Zhenya knows of a source I am willing to drive a little for it :-)

Thanks a bunch,
Nikki

[Ninong]

Zhenya probably doesn't know of a source in Massachusetts but he may know whether it's still available anywhere at all along the East Coast. He lives in New Jersey.

It used to be available in the Boston area. It's seasonal. So you probably wouldn't find it in late November or December even at Home Depot stores that would normally carry it. It's stocked in early spring in the Garden Department. Then, in late summer, they usually cut the price in half to get rid of what's left.

However, I'm not even sure it's still available at all, which is why I want zhenya to chime in.

[Nikki]

Ninong,

In the following thread (Saltwaterfish.com Message Boards - Pavestone High Desert Sand) the participants have located an Irwin Stone in Rockville, MD that has a white sand created from marble which is calciferous (thank you wikipedia!). I am wondering what your thoughts are on this as I have read in other posts of yours that there is a concern that there could have been threads of undesirous metals and minerals in the raw product? I have contacted the company to see if the white sand is the same since there has been some time since the thread was posted.

Thanks,
Nikki

[Nikki]

Ninong (and Zhenya),

I am actually based in MD now (just moved from MA), is there a profile somewhere I should update, I will look for it. I am sorry Zhenya, but I had a chuckle when Ninong referred to you as a 'he', I assumed with your kitty picture that you were female :-) Hopefully no offense taken, but it was a good chuckle at the end of a long day and much needed!

Regards,
Nikki

[Ninong]

Marble starts out as limestone but it recrystalizes over millions of years under pressure into marble. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't use marble or sand made from marble. It's calcite but it's derived from sources than have been terrestrial for millions of years and there's no telling what's mixed in.

The aragonite sand that is sold in the hobby comes from Marcona Ocean Industries and is mined from a cay in the Bahamas. All aragonite sand comes from the same place. This is aragonite that precipitated out over the Bahama Banks. The aragonite sand that used to be sold under the brand names Southdown and Yardright, and later Oldcastle, was from the same place as the high-priced stuff sold at your LFS.

You will have to make up you own mind, but I would get aragonite sand. If it's not available from Home Depot at the cheapy prices, I would buy it from an LFS and pay the higher prices. I'm not a fan of quartz sand or calcite sand, just aragonite sand.

[zhenya]

Ninong (and Zhenya),

I am actually based in MD now (just moved from MA), is there a profile somewhere I should update, I will look for it. I am sorry Zhenya, but I had a chuckle when Ninong referred to you as a 'he', I assumed with your kitty picture that you were female :-) Hopefully no offense taken, but it was a good chuckle at the end of a long day and much needed!

Regards,
Nikki

None taken, Nikki.
Not all males prefer dogs by the way. I mean I do but I have two cats now so I'm partial to cats.

I will ask around about good ol Southdown sand and see if it's still available.
Not keeping my hopes up, though, we haven;t seen it around here in a while.
Will let you know in a couple of days after I speak with a rep from HD. By the way, if you have a Home Depot not too far from you you can ask them in the garden department to check if they still have some Old Castle sand. It may say that it's not for aquarium use on the bags but that;s nonsense.

[Ninong]

If you're in Maryland, check out Dr. Mac's website. He's in Mardela Springs, MD. After your tank is up and running, you might want to pick up a few pounds of live sand from Dr. Mac. He sells sand from his live rock curing tanks by the pound.

And, if you need live rock, you can buy fully cured live rock from Dr. Mac and pick it out yourself. That saves shipping costs.

[Nikki]

Ninong, thanks for the LR tip! I had seen someone else recommend him highly as well so I think I will make the trek to get some good LR :-)

Regards,
Nikki

[rjs5134]

Nikki,

I'm in NJ not far from Gene(aka Zhenya). I spent weeks earlier this year looking for aragonite sand. I surfed the internet, visited 8 Home Depot's in NY and NJ, stopped at every pet shop/aquarium store I drove past, added several posts to this forumn, and eventually drove 3 hours+/- to Lancaster to buy Aragamax from That-Fish-Place. I was told by HD that Southdown/Oldcastle is no longer in business and the woman was not able to locate any more of their product at any HD.

To make a loooong story short, I wasn't able to locate any cheap aragonite sand so I bought the expensive stuff.

Hope that saves you some time.

Rob

[Bryant]

I thought i read that Si02 in silica sand can promote growth of cyanobacteria, in addition to being a carcinogen :-p

that's more reason to go with calcium i guess...

[Ninong]

I thought i read that Si02 in silica sand can promote growth of cyanobacteria, in addition to being a carcinogen :-p

that's more reason to go with calcium i guess...

Silicon dioxide (SiO2) is silica sand, commonly called quartz. Therefore, it is incorrect and confusing to say "SiO2 in silica sand."

From the IARC list of carcinogens: Silica , crystalline (inhaled in the form of quartz or cristobalite from occupational sources)

Note that you have to inhale it into your lungs for it to be carcinogenic. That's the way asbestos is carcinogenic, too. It has to be inhaled.

Before going further, let me dispose of your reference to cyanobacteria. You probably meant to refer to diatoms, right? There is no connection between cyanobacteria and silica. Cyanobacteria depends on nitrogen and phosphate but not silicates.

Soluble silica in the form of silicic acid is used by diatoms to construct their cell walls. Most of the dissolved silica in seawater is in the form of silicic acid, Si(OH)4. When you set up a new marine aquarium, you will usually go through a diatom bloom. Even if you used quartz sand (aka silica sand), the diatoms are not getting the silica from your sand, they're getting it from the soluble silica in the water supply in the form of silicic acid, Si(OH)4, or silicate, Si(OH)3O-. Once they deplete the available soluble silica, the diatoms will die down to the point where you won't really notice them.

I should probably state again for the record that I personally would not use silica sand (quartz sand) in a marine aquarium. However, many hobbyists have used it. The question of whether quartz sand dissolves in saltwater and, if so, the extent to which it dissolves is always good for a heated discussion on the boards.

Personally, I believe that pure quartz sand does dissolve but the rate of dissolution is so low as to be inconsequential and of little concern. However, and this is a VERY big however, if you read the fine print on the bag the quartz sand came it, it will typically say it is 98% quartz. That means that every 50-lb bag of quartz sand contains a pound of unknown matter that you may not want in your tank.

Here is my bottom line: I'm not interested in using quartz sand. Personally, I would only use aragonite sand. I know people who have used quartz sand. They seem happy with it. They report no problems with it. Good for them. I'm still not interested in using it.



P.S. -- And I'm not interested in using calcite sand, just aragonite sand. Lots of people use calcite sand. There's nothing wrong with it. I just don't like it. I prefer aragonite because of the fact that it begins to dissolve at pH 7.7. Calcite begins to dissolve at pH 7.4. I'm interested in maximizing any benefits to be had from the potential dissolution of the calcareous sand in my aquarium. These benefits may be over-hyped because net dissolution may be less than some people think, but whatever is available, I want to go for it.

[Bryant]

Yeah, I thought i was getting something wrong with the cyano/diatoms thing. I think i have a problem with both for the moment, so the two kinda mesh together to me.

A little over a month ago, I bought some fine white sand from Petco for my tank. I had no idea that I should look out for calcite/aragonite/silicate sands. It wasn't sold as "live sand" ... so was dry in the packaging. Anyone have any guesses what type of sand this is/might be?

[Ninong]

A little over a month ago, I bought some fine white sand from Petco for my tank. I had no idea that I should look out for calcite/aragonite/silicate sands. It wasn't sold as "live sand" ... so was dry in the packaging. Anyone have any guesses what type of sand this is/might be?

That's hard to say. The color doesn't help. It could be white silica sand or it could be calcareous sand (aragonite or calcite). The price might be a pretty good indicator. Do you remember how many pounds you bought and how much it cost you?

Was there a brand name on the box or bag? Do you remember reading any warning labels on the package? California's Prop. 65 requires warnings on silica (quartz) sand packages because of the possibility of inhalation, which could cause cancer. Any mention of the word "silica" anywhere on the package means it's silica sand. You won't find any Prop. 65 warnings on aragonite sand packaging.

It's possible they might be selling Carib-Sea aragonite sand but that stuff runs at least $1/lb, maybe $1.50??? I haven't bought any lately, so I'm not sure.

I don't go to Petco stores. You probably remember that five years ago S.F. City Attorney Dennis Herrera sued Petco trying to prevent them from selling any live animals of any kind in The City. That lawsuit was settled three years ago. Petco paid a large fine and promised to actually train their employees in how to care for livestock. Yeah, right! Haha! They've been sued a lot -- for cruelty to animals and for regularly overcharging customers.

P.S. -- Remove about a tablespoon of sand from your tank. Allow it to dry out first and then either drip some vinegar on it or simply dump the sand into a cup of vinegar. Aragonite sand will fizz as it reacts with acid to release CO2; it will actually dissolve in vinegar if you put a small amount of it into a larger amount of vinegar, or hydrochloric acid (muriatic acid). Quartz sand will not react.

[Bryant]

Thanks for the advice. I will try the vinegar/acid test. I don't remember any warning labels on the bag, and it sold for maybe $8/10lbs (I bought 2 bags). Some time i'll go back to the store and see if there are any more bags in stock just to check. I'm newish to the city and don't have a car... so trips to the LFS are somewhat rare (local news from 5 years ago is before my time too :-P

[Nikki]

Thanks for all the help guys, I have taken the next step and rinsed and added my sand this afternoon. Unfortunately, the LFS guy recommended that I put larger grain sand (reef sand) on the bottom and sugar sand on the top and now I am reading all the posts about how the larger grain will rise to the top and begin collecting detritus! Arghh! What can I do now, do I wait for it to work it's way up, siphon it out and replace with sugar grain?

Thanks,
Nikki

[rjs5134]

It's a tough job, but best done now rather than later. A metal colander will probably work well.

And STOP listening to lfs, they are terrible. Good luck.

[Nikki]

Thanks for the metal colander tip, I will be grabbing one today and doing the dirty work :-)

Regards,
Nikki

[ellemarchael]

I felt prepared tonight to go on a sand hunt and have come back sandless. My local hardware store had 'Mr Garden Play Sand' with absolutely no indication of what it is made of on the bag or on-line. HD had 'Pavestone High Desert Play Sand' which has a lot of print, but only a warning on the back that it might have a 'small' amount of crystalline silica in it, but no indication of source or makeup otherwise on bag or on-line. I also have some play sand I ordered for the kids still in a bag from Safe Sand Company (it was quite expensive and I am a sucker I now see :-)) which I am learning is a feldspathic sand produced as a byproduct of mica mining which makes me think I must stay away from it from the posts I have read.

I would really like to stay away from silica based sand as my belief is that if it is not safe for my children to breathe, why would it be safe for my fish to live in an environment with it present.

Any thoughts, pointers, etc? I am now thinking I should just go to my LFS and fork out some dough.

Thanks,
Nikki

Don't buy if you are using around kids. My son and his friend have both had small iron particles lodged in their eye that had to be surgically removed. I am working with Pavestone to remove it from being a child safe play sand. Pavestone has admitted to high levels of iron. They see no reason to pull the product. I am working on pulling the product with a federal and state agency.