Low calcium - couple of questions

[Nikki]

I am just starting out my tank (46 gallon) and have two coralline encrusted pieces of live rock to start with. I just got a calcium test kit (Seachem) and tested yesterday and today with the same results of ~225 ppm. This is quite lower than I would like to see it (aiming for about 410-430). I did conduct the included reference test and the test appears to be accurate. One question I have is Seachem a good test kit as I have since seen Salifert highly recommended?

I also would like to test out my planned approach and make sure it is sound. I have found a wealth of information from previous posts and recommended linked articles so thank you all for that! My approach I think should go something like this:

1. Use turbo calcium to boost my calcium levels and monitor magnesium as I am doing this. I have visited the reef chemistry calculator to determine how much turbo ca I need here (Gene thanks for that link in another post!).
2. This will also drive down the alkalinity (currently at 12 dKH which from a visited reefnerds link seems to equate to 4.2 meq/L +++ had to edit here as that was a couple of days ago and now I am 7.5 dKH, ouch)) so compensate with the part B of a 2 part supplement (I have seen C-Balance and B-Ionics recommended here are there any others or have opinions changed?).
3. Conduct a good size water change (probably do this first actually). I am using Instant Ocean and saw that others have used a 'reef salt', have any others seen this as beneficial enough to switch?
4. Once my Ca and alk are in balance I can switch to Kalkwasser to maintain.
5. In regards to a Ca reactor, do most all fo you use this product (how much can I spend here?!?!!? :-))

Another question I have is I have noticed on parts of my LR that there are large white splashy patches and I think while researching some articles that Ninong recommended that these must be limestone growths, could this be correct and what does it mean? I am unsure whether they have appeared in my tank or were there when I purchased them, I think maybe the latter. Will they disappear?

Thanks!

[zhenya]

Hi Nikki,

3. Conduct a good size water change (probably do this first actually). I am using Instant Ocean and saw that others have used a 'reef salt', have any others seen this as beneficial enough to switch?

I wouldn't bother switching as yet to anything. Simply do a wather change but test your freshly mixed water that you'll be putting in and see what exactly your Alk and Ca values are. If need be simply boost your Ca with the CaCl(turbocalcium). Then, re-check you Ca and Alk levels after a day or so and if you need to make adjustments then do them.
It can be quite a chase but you should be able to maintain your Ca and Alk with either Kalkwasser additions or two part additives such as Bi-Ionic.
As far as test kits go, I personally just switched to LaMott's test kits due to the shortage of Salifert kits in the country. Almost all vendor list them as sold out.

[scubadude]

Yup...wat Gene said....No need to even worry yourself about a calcium reactor if you dont need one! Generally they are for ppl who want SPS dominant tanks and/or clams.

Whatever 2 part you use I would recommend staying with that one and not changing once you find what you want. I recommend IO (Instant Ocean) as salt and Oceans Blend as 2part. HTH

[Nikki]

Thanks Gene and Rocky :-) I just tested a batch of new water I made up last night (remember I am not using RO/DI yet and using our well water) and it hasn't set for the full 24 hours yet, just a little over 12. The KH was 13 and the Ca was 275! Is it possible I got a bad batch of Instant Ocean? I did buy it at PetCo because this is the closest store to us so I buy dry goods there, but maybe I shouldn't.

[CSeaSee]

Have you tested your well water pre-salt? I'd be curious to see what's in there...

[Nikki]

Now that, Carl, turns out to be a VERY interesting question! The KH is 8 and I have no idea what the Ca is. In the Seachem test you use 1 ml test water, some distilled water, add a drop of reagent 1 (liquid) wait 30 seconds then add 1 scoop of reagent 2 (powder). You then swirl gently and when it dissolves add titrant until the water turns from pink to true blue. However, when swirling gently with my well water (no salt) it never turns pink!!! I tried twice because I figured with 3 young whippersnappers at my heels I had missed a step, but I hadn't. Does this mean my well water is overloaded (more than 500 ppm) with calcium?

[CSeaSee]

I'm not an expert at water chemistry here, so anyone else is free to chime in and correct me if I'm wrong...
But here's my idea:
Perhaps the alkalinity already present in your well water is driving the calcium level down by "crowding out" the calcium ions in your IO mix- this is over-simplifying things a bit, I know.
Also, if your calcium levels really are that high in the well water, adding the salt mix might initiate a cascade which causes a lot of your calcium to fall out of solution- similar to adding kalkwasser too fast.
These are just ideas- if you could go buy 5 gallons of distilled water and mix a batch of IO salt in there, you could get a better idea of whether or not it's your salt mix. If the "distilled water" saltwater has a low calcium result, your salt would look pretty suspicious.
Anyone else?

[Nikki]

Carl,

Your idea did trigger something in my brain. Whenever I mix a new batch of water I have noticed that after a couple of days the bottom of the container has a white crust on it. At first I was thiinking this was beacuse of the cold in the garage or something. But your hypothesis above is exactly right I think! It is most likely the calcium falling out of the solution. Just another reason to go the extra step and set up an RO/DI system although I do not have a lot of room .... Would another mitigation possibility be to increase the alkalinity of the source water before mixing in the salt?

[Ninong]

I am just starting out my tank (46 gallon) and have two coralline encrusted pieces of live rock to start with. I just got a calcium test kit (Seachem) and tested yesterday and today with the same results of ~225 ppm.

You should probably test your freshly made up saltwater before using it to see if it's deficient in calcium. You want your saltwater to test at least 375 ppm Ca. If it tests much lower than that, you may wish to consider changing brands. On the other hand, one salt mix in particular contains too much calcium.

This is quite lower than I would like to see it (aiming for about 410-430). I did conduct the included reference test and the test appears to be accurate. One question I have is Seachem a good test kit as I have since seen Salifert highly recommended?

I have never used Seachem's calcium test kit but I believe it is probably reliable. I prefer LaMotte's calcium test kit but it's a little more expensive.

I also would like to test out my planned approach and make sure it is sound. I have found a wealth of information from previous posts and recommended linked articles so thank you all for that! My approach I think should go something like this:

1. Use turbo calcium to boost my calcium levels and monitor magnesium as I am doing this. I have visited the reef chemistry calculator to determine how much turbo ca I need here (Gene thanks for that link in another post!).
2. This will also drive down the alkalinity (currently at 12 dKH which from a visited reefnerds link seems to equate to 4.2 meq/L +++ had to edit here as that was a couple of days ago and now I am 7.5 dKH, ouch)) so compensate with the part B of a 2 part supplement (I have seen C-Balance and B-Ionics recommended here are there any others or have opinions changed?).

You really don't need Turbo Calcium if you're employing any of the popular two-component products. There is not need to rush things. You can gradually raise your calcium levels by dosing more of the calcium component relative to the alkalinity component. In other words, instead of dosing one of each component, dose two units of calcium for each one unit of alkalinity. Monitor your calcium and alkalinity by testing at least once a week and adjust dosing as needed. This is the way I started my tank. After about five or six weeks I was able to discontinue the expensive two-component product and switch to cheapy limewater (Mrs. Wages) because my calcium level was above 400 ppm.

3. Conduct a good size water change (probably do this first actually).

This isn't going to do anything for your calcium level if the salt mixes up to a low calcium level. Measure your freshly made up saltwater and see what you're getting as a calcium reading.

I am using Instant Ocean and saw that others have used a 'reef salt', have any others seen this as beneficial enough to switch?

Instant Ocean is the largest selling salt mix. They also market Reef Crystals as their specialty "reef" product. In other words, the manufacturer of Instant Ocean claims that it is intended for use in fish-only systems and Reef Crystals is intended for use in "reef" systems. This recommendation of the manufacturer has been ignored for decades. Many people use Instant Ocean in reef tanks.

The question of which salt mix brand is "best" is extremely complicated. For one thing, sometimes you can get a bad batch. This has been known to happen. It's probably a good idea to always test the first batch of saltwater that you make up from a new salt mix package before using it. This could actually turn out to be a life saver.

4. Once my Ca and alk are in balance I can switch to Kalkwasser to maintain.

Yes.

5. In regards to a Ca reactor, do most all fo you use this product (how much can I spend here?!?!!? :-))

You don't have to worry about a calcium reactor right now. Don't worry about that decision for at least another year or more. Then you will be better able to make up your mind. Forget about it for the time being.

Another question I have is I have noticed on parts of my LR that there are large white splashy patches and I think while researching some articles that Ninong recommended that these must be limestone growths, could this be correct and what does it mean? I am unsure whether they have appeared in my tank or were there when I purchased them, I think maybe the latter. Will they disappear?

Thanks!

I'm not sure what you mean by "limestone growths?" In any event, I wouldn't be concerned. White patches on live rock could just be places where there was some initial die-off. Don't worry about the white patches.

[CSeaSee]

I keep my RODI system in the garage- if you have a water spigot there, you may be in luck- it doesn't take up more than 4 square feet, including buckets.
To mitigate your problem, you actually need to (assuming the original hypothesis is correct) remove/reduce the alkalinity before mixing the salt. It sounds backwards, i know...
Your best bet is to buy a good RODI system.
Your "white crust" is in keeping with the whole idea- it seems to make sense.

[Ninong]

I just tested a batch of new water I made up last night (remember I am not using RO/DI yet and using our well water) and it hasn't set for the full 24 hours yet, just a little over 12.

You don't want the saltwater to "set." You want it to age but you want to keep a powerhead or airstone or some other means of aeration going in it while it is aging. This is just the opposite of the way you "age" limewater (Kalkwasser). With limewater, you mix it and then leave it alone to settle out without mixing it again. With saltwater, you want to keep it aerated while it's aging.

If you're using a powerhead or some other means of aerating your saltwater, it should be ready for testing about an hour after mixing. I wouldn't use it that fast except in an emergency but it's ready to test at that point because the pH should have stabilized by then. My own practice was to allow a freshly made up batch of saltwater to age for at least three or four days before using it. Fossa & Nilsen recommend a full week of aging before usage. Some of the salt manufacturers tell you it's OK to use as soon as it's mixed and some say you should wait an hour. They're all nuts! It's definitely better to allow it to age at least a couple of days before using it.

The KH was 13 and the Ca was 275! Is it possible I got a bad batch of Instant Ocean? I did buy it at PetCo because this is the closest store to us so I buy dry goods there, but maybe I shouldn't.

The store has absolutely nothing to do with the content of the salt mix. This is one item you can buy based on the cheapest available vendor. A dKH of 13 for freshly mixed up saltwater is NOT a problem. I wouldn't worry about that number at all. Calcium of 275 ppm is definitely on the low side. Some people have reported low calcium levels in freshly made up Instant Ocean but usually they're complaining about numbers around 350 ppm, not 275 ppm.

You can still use this salt mix. You will just have to boost the calcium. You can even do that before adding the saltwater to your tank. In this instance, you could probably use some of that Turbo Calcium that you have on hand.

If you feel like going through the hassle, you could take the remaining Instant Ocean back to the retail vendor and ask for a full refund on the basis that the product is not as advertised. Instant Ocean advertises a guaranteed analysis and 275 ppm Ca is well outside the range of what is acceptable. If the vendor offers to replace it with another container of Instant Ocean, then you will want to mix up a small batch (a few gallons) from this package to see if it's acceptable.

[Ninong]

Now that, Carl, turns out to be a VERY interesting question!

Well water is always a risky bet unless you have it tested. It's not the alkalinity or calcium that can be problematic (especially since this is a saltwater aquarium and not a freshwater one) but the other unknowns. It's highly unlikely that you would have a problem with copper, which is frequently a problem with tapwater, but you never know what industrial chemicals may have leached into the ground water in your area.

The KH is 8 and I have no idea what the Ca is.

If the dKH is 8, then you're sitting over a limestone deposit. If you were keeping a freshwater tank, it would be perfect for African ciclids but horrible for Amazon species. Neutral pH is 7. Rainwater, which was neutral at one time in the past, is usually acidic due to acid rain, especially in industrialized areas.

In any event, the alkalinity of your well water is not a problem at all because seawater has a pH of 8.2, so you're fine on this point. The calcium content in your well water is not a problem at all. It's possibly as high as 100-200 ppm if your alk is 8.0 but whatever it is, it's of no consequence because you're keeping a saltwater tank. Tapwater can be as high as 200 ppm Ca in some areas or as low as 10 ppm Ca in others. It just depends on the source of the tapwater. If you live in San Francisco, your tapwater will be very soft and low in calcium and alkalinity because their tapwater comes from the Hetch Hetchy and it's all Sierra snowmelt. If you live in a city that gets its tapwater from groundwater that filters through a limestone substrate, then you will have a much higher calcium content.

[Ninong]

Whenever I mix a new batch of water I have noticed that after a couple of days the bottom of the container has a white crust on it.

Some people who use Instant Ocean have reported a white precipation/deposit in the mixing container. I've never used Instant Ocean myself. Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley uses it and he reported a white coating on the walls of the mixing container. I have never experienced a white coating anywhere in the mixing container with the salt that I used. The only thing I got was a slight deposit at the bottom of the container that was sort of beige in color -- approximately one or two tablespoons of stuff on the bottom in a batch of 20 gallons of saltwater. That may have been clay.

At first I was thiinking this was beacuse of the cold in the garage or something.

You should have a heater in the water container and you should bring it up to at least 72 degrees Fahrenheit before mixing. Then you should bring the temperature up to the same as your aquarium before using. I usually set my heater in the mixing container on 78 F or 80 F to begin with. My tank usually ran above 80 F because I didn't have a chiller installed.

Would another mitigation possibility be to increase the alkalinity of the source water before mixing in the salt?

I wouldn't do anything to the source freshwater other than filtration. R.O./D.I. water will have a pH of around 7. Your tank is only 46 gallons, so it wouldn't be too expensive to simply buy R.O. water from the grocery store. Wal-Mart stores usually dispense R.O. water in the front of the store from a vending machine. They charge 25 cents per gallon if you bring your own containers. It's R.O. water that is run through a U.V. filter as it is dispensed. It's not D.I. but it's certainly better than your well water or straight tapwater. You can also buy distilled water for anywhere from about 68 cents to 99 cents per gallon. Don't buy "drinking" water without knowing for sure what you're buying.

[Ninong]

I keep my RODI system in the garage- if you have a water spigot there, you may be in luck- it doesn't take up more than 4 square feet, including buckets.

Since you're in Chicago, I take it your garage is heated??? Otherwise, what do you do about freezing???

[Nikki]

Thank you all for the comprehensive replies :-)

Ninong, I will not worry about the Ca reactor for now (whew!). In regards to the large white patches they are very large consistently white areas on the rocks, but I will just monitor them and see what happens. It reminds me of limestone deposits I have seen in nature.

Sorry, still learning terms here, not 'set' but 'age' the water as you pointed out. I do use airstones in the holding tank and have a heater, but I have not been heating the water up first before mixing so that is a good tip, thank you. I also do not believe I have a food grade container and I have read yours and others posts here about that component so will be getting one soon, could this possibly be a problem we are seeing as well?

For the source water and possible leaching we are very close to the Chesapeake Bay and I am fairly certain there are some unwanted elements in our water. We had it tested upon purchasing (just 6 months ago), but that showed nothing detrimental from a physical health perspective.

Do you have any theories on why my SeaChem Ca test water never turns pink and instead turns instantly blue which is the desired end result after titration? My newbie theory is that the Ca level in the source water is above 500ppm? Do you know how these tests work, what causes the water to change color, is it reducing the amount of Ca ions until there is none?

Thanks for the tip on the Walmart RO water, I will check our local Wally World and see if they carry this product.

To my novice brain Carl's theory that my source water is causing the Ca to precipitate makes some sense, what are your thoughts Ninong?

Carl, can you expand a little on the reducing the alkalinity level before mixing the salt in? It does sound backwards, but if I don't understand it there will be no brain retention for me as I think I am going senile early :-)

Thanks all!!!! I have also contacted SeaChem to see their response to the immediate true blue in the testing process so if you are interested I can share the reply with you.

[Nikki]

Also another question I have (and thanks for answering all my questions I hope I am not being a pest!) is the coralline algae growth in the tank on the LR is phenomenal. How can this be with low Ca levels?

[Ninong]

Do you have any theories on why my SeaChem Ca test water never turns pink and instead turns instantly blue which is the desired end result after titration? My newbie theory is that the Ca level in the source water is above 500ppm? Do you know how these tests work, what causes the water to change color, is it reducing the amount of Ca ions until there is none?

I have never used any of the Seachem test kits but I assume that all calcium test kits based on titration probably work about the same. I gave away all of my test kits when I sold my tank prior to my move last year, so I'm working from memory here.

First of all, make sure that you are following the instructions. I assume that you are but read them again if you have any doubt. I'm trying to remember how my LaMotte calcium test kit worked. (I may be confused about which LaMotte test kit I'm remembering. Here are the instructions for the LaMotte calcium test kit according to LaMotte's website. I hate to remember stuff like this because I have a tendency to remember the wrong test.)

The way titration test kits work is that you add some sort of indicator to the solution. Then you gradually add a titrating solution. You keep adding the titrant until the color of the solution reaches the endpoint. The concentration of the ion of interest is determined by the amount of titrant required to reach the endpoint color.

There will be a transition phase just before you reach the endpoint color. If I remember correctly, in the case of my LaMotte calcium test kit the endpoint was a deep dark blue and once it turned purple, you had passed up the endpoint... I think. That's assuming I'm remembering the correct kit. During the transition phase when the color begins to change but before it reaches the endpoint there are still uncomplexed ions of interest present in the sample. Make note of the exact reading (how much titrant you have used) right at the point where you think you may have reached the endpoint and then add another drop or two to see if the color stays the same. If the color stays the same that means that you reached the endpoint and you take your initial reading that you wrote down. LaMotte uses direct reading titrators, which I liked.

When first using a test kit, I almost always ran the same test three times to make sure I knew what I was doing and to make sure I was satisfied with the result. Even later on when I thought I knew what I was doing, I would sometimes repeat a test if I didn't like the first result. For some tests (e.g., magnesium and iodine), I almost always ran the test twice. After awhile you will get the hang of it and feel more confident in your testing skills. The most important thing to remember is that you want to be as exacting as possible. Also, I like to view solutions through natural light by holding the vial up to a window with northern exposure. The type of lighting can make a difference in the appearance of the sample. (Obviously this doesn't work if you're running a test (ammonia, nitrite or nitrate) that requires you to place the vial down on the white part of the chart and view it from the top down.)

Syringe titration methods (LaMotte's test kits) are more accurate than test kits that use droppers. Even with my LaMotte calcium test kit, I didn't use the little .5 ml dropper thing that came with it to collect the 1 ml saltwater sample from my aquarium -- I used a syringe from my Salifert nitrate test kit. LaMotte's nitrate test kit is much better but it's very expensive!

[Ninong]

Here are the instructions for Seachem's calcium test kit. Their test kit is not the same as LaMotte's calcium test kit.

[Ninong]

Also another question I have (and thanks for answering all my questions I hope I am not being a pest!) is the coralline algae growth in the tank on the LR is phenomenal. How can this be with low Ca levels?

Your coralline algae require calcium. Maybe the coralline algae is extracting enough calcium to get by in spite of your measured low calcium levels? In any case, you can't maintain nice coralline algae without normal calcium and alkalinity.

[Nikki]

Thanks again for all the great ideas and responses! I have heard back from the SeaChem tech support and he says the following about the way the test works:
"Reagent #1 precipitates magnesium and strontium. The powder is a calcium dye. The titration binds calcium and denotes calcium levels with a distinct color change."

He also indicated that the immediate turn to true blue means there is not enough Ca in the water to test, as well as it specifically says to use with saltwater versus fresh, although he did not indicate whether this would produce an erroneous result.

Thanks for the link to the instructions, they appear to be the same that are included and I will continue to read them carefully although I did pick up a Salifert kit yesterday adn will see if there is any difference in results.

I have received my Turbo Ca and 2 part B-Ionic and will try to get to the correct levels with these products and all your wonderful advice. I went out to Dr Mac's on Friday and procured some of his LR and am very happy with it :-) Now the Ca will be a fought for resource as I added 50 lbs so I need to get this right!