[thagreek]

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say hi and this is a very nice forum.
I have a couple of questions I am hoping to find answers to.

Let me begin by describing my setup. I am farely new to salt water tanks.

I have a 55 gallon aquarium with fish and live rock.
I was told by the pet store that I should use the undergravel filter because its the best way to go.
Where I live I really dont have a real petstore that does salt tanks.
Anyhow, I went to visit family in houston and decided to pick up some live rock from there at a way better price and while I was there I asked what kind of filter he had. It was called a refusion filter and I cant find them anywhere on the internet. It had a pump that pumped water from the tank to this box under the aquarium and filtered it with live rock and seaweed and then pumped it back into the tank. I explained to him that I have undergravel filters and he told me that for live rocks in the tank I do not want to use the undergravel filter. He said that an undergravel filter is a timebomb and eventually everything is going to die because of all the stuff in the gravel. Now I dont know what to do. I really cant afford that refusion filter right now because its pretty expensive. I also have the big hang on filter on the bank and he said that would work better then the undergravel filter.

Basically what I am trying to find out is, is he telling the truth? Should I do away with the undergravel filter? If I do take the undergravel filters out, wont it let all that nasty stuff its been sucking down for 6 months out and kill my fish? Will the hang on filter do a good job until I can get the refusion filter? The only thing I really want for now is fish and live rock. I have right now about 37.5 pounds of live rock.

Any advice will be appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

[TimH07]

its actualy a refugium aka a refuge from the main tank, the idea of this is to grow a macro algae in it that will consume your nitrates and/or phospates and will help reduce the chance of getting the undesired algaes in your display tank.

im sure someone else on here can give you a more precise explanation

undergravel filters arent that great and shouldnt be used. if you make a refugium put a sponge to filter the large debris from going to it. get some live aragonite sand as your substrate. the reason he told you gravel will cause problems is because its so porous fish waste and other waste will settle down in it and cause you nitrate headaches. its better to have a finer substrate so the waste lay on top.

[returnofsid]

I would recommend removing the UGF. 20 years ago, it was believed they were the way to go. They aren't even the way to go with FW tanks anymore. You may have a problem with removing it though, as you mentioned. One option you could consider is to just leave it in place but remove the lift tubes. This would basically shut down your UGF but not stir up all your live sand. In a way, it would kind of turn your system into a Plenum. Lots of Live Rock and a good Protein Skimmer are all the filtration you really need.

Oh wait, I just realized that you have gravel instead of sand?? Ignore what I said above then...lol. Tear the entire tank down, remove the UGF and replace the gravel with aragonite sand. This will be a pain in the butt but it'll sure benefit your tank in the long run. In the process of tearing everything down, save as much water as you can and keep your live rock in circulating water. You'll totally empty your tank so this will eliminate the problem with releasing gasses built up in your UGF.

A refugium doesn't have to be expensive. Find a used bare tank that will fit under your stand and use it to build your own sump/refugium. In the meantime, 50-75 pounds of live rock and a protein skimmer is all the filtration you really need.

[thagreek]

Originally Posted by TimH07

its actualy a refugium aka a refuge from the main tank, the idea of this is to grow a macro algae in it that will consume your nitrates and/or phospates and will help reduce the chance of getting the undesired algaes in your display tank.

im sure someone else on here can give you a more precise explanation

undergravel filters arent that great and shouldnt be used. if you make a refugium put a sponge to filter the large debris from going to it. get some live aragonite sand as your substrate. the reason he told you gravel will cause problems is because its so porous fish waste and other waste will settle down in it and cause you nitrate headaches. its better to have a finer substrate so the waste lay on top.

Thanks for the quick reply. Really appreciate the advice. When I take the undergravel filter out this is what I was thinking to do. Maybe someone could tell me a better way.

I have an extra 39 gallon tank, I am going to take the water from the 55 gallon and fill the 39 gallon up and move the fish and rocks over to that tank.
Then I am going to take the rest of the water out into containers, as much as I can. Then remove the undergravel filters, sand, and rocks that are there now. Then give the tank a nice scrubbing to get rid of any nasty build up in it. Then start putting the water back into the 55 gallon, but only put 75% of old water and 25% of fresh salt water, and then move the fish and rocks back over.

Does that sound like a good plan?
If not please let me know.
Thanks again.

[thagreek]

Originally Posted by returnofsid

I would recommend removing the UGF. 20 years ago, it was believed they were the way to go. They aren't even the way to go with FW tanks anymore. You may have a problem with removing it though, as you mentioned. One option you could consider is to just leave it in place but remove the lift tubes. This would basically shut down your UGF but not stir up all your live sand. In a way, it would kind of turn your system into a Plenum. Lots of Live Rock and a good Protein Skimmer are all the filtration you really need.

Oh wait, I just realized that you have gravel instead of sand?? Ignore what I said above then...lol. Tear the entire tank down, remove the UGF and replace the gravel with aragonite sand. This will be a pain in the butt but it'll sure benefit your tank in the long run. In the process of tearing everything down, save as much water as you can and keep your live rock in circulating water. You'll totally empty your tank so this will eliminate the problem with releasing gasses built up in your UGF.

A refugium doesn't have to be expensive. Find a used bare tank that will fit under your stand and use it to build your own sump/refugium. In the meantime, 50-75 pounds of live rock and a protein skimmer is all the filtration you really need.

Thanks for the reply. I am going to just strip it out and save as much water as I can like you said. Wish me luck

[rjs5134]

You have the tear down process under control. I pretty much did the same thing a few months ago and it was a little time consuming but no big deal. Don't forget to maintain the temp of all the water.

Use the search feature and search for "sumps" or "refugiums". You will find a number of threads related to the "filter" your looking for. Several threads will give you DIY sumps/refugium that will suit your needs relatively cheaply.

[returnofsid]

Does sound like a great plan. Are you going with new live sand or bare bottom? Bare Bottom is a bit harder to mantain IMO.

[thagreek]

Thanks for the replies.

I want to do sand but I have no idea where to get it where I live.
Maybe I can do bare bottom and then add sand later. I dont know yet.
My main concern is to get those stupid filters out of there.

[rjs5134]

pI had a difficult time finding a local source for the sand I wanted in the quantity I needed. I ended up driving to That Fish Place nearly 3 hours away. You can order it online from one of Reefland's spondors. Shipping will be a little pricey, but in the end you will probably spend about the same.

And you can do this in 2 steps, 1 remove the old then some time later add the sand, but unless it's crucial, why go through the hassle twice? The change is worth it. I had an algae problem that went away shortly after removing my crushed coral substrate.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

[returnofsid]

Definitely don't go with Crushed Coral. Some people have good luck with it but most have nitrate issues, which leads to algae issues, with it. You want to go with an Aragonite Sand. Depending on your area, some areas have been able to find it at Home Depots or Lowes. I'm in the Pacific North West and can't find it that way. When you are able to find it at a building supply store, it's usually sold as Play Ground Sand or Sand Box Sand. You want to make sure it's aragonite and not silicate based though. Some in the midwest and east have found it at building supply stores.

Another option is online. As was mentioned, it is worth the expense, if it's the only option.

As with Crushed Coral, some have had great luck with bare bottom...others have huge problems maintaining water quality. The Aragonite sand acts as a buffer to help keep your pH and Alk where they need to be. It also acts as a filtration media and a home for all kinds of lil critters that are very beneficial to your tank.

If you do add it later, it can be done by pouring it through a tube, slowly, so it doesn't create a dust cloud.

[TimH07]

rjs5134, you could have gone to East Coast Aquatics in prospect park just south of philly airport, they have truck loads of live aragonite sand and a pretty impressive selection of hardware and livestock, and they all know what they are talking about. its where i get my stuff for now till i start driving to Dr. Mac. i did want to take a trip to lancaster and check out that pet place though, is their fish dept any good?

[thagreek]

Thanks for all the replies. I woke up this morning and was ready to clean out the old aquarium of dust and whatever... A line busted under my street and I have no water. How great is that. :P

So I am not sure what I am going to do.
I am about to call lowes and see if they have that sand. Thanks again.

[rjs5134]

I'm not sure where you live, but I wouldn't spend too much time looking in hardware stores. If you search "aragonite sand" you'll find a number of threads with the same conclusion, the distributor of the sand to hardware stores is probably no longer in business or at least not distributing that sand, for a couple of years now.

Tim, I found out about that store after I had been to Lancaster and already had my sand. It is on my list of stores to check out, along with another one in the Easton area(I think).

[thagreek]

I went to petco which is 1.5 hours away and got 50 pounds of live aragonite sand. I took out the fish and rocks and put them into my 39 gallon. I am now letting the water clear up.

I also decided to go with a Fluval 305 filter. I hope that is a good one. I cant afford to spend anymore money on filters. Anyhow, I will post everything up when I am done on how it went.

Again, thanks for all the advice and helpful information.

[thagreek]

Okay, I need help. I dont know what to do.

I did exactly what I said I was gonna do.
I took out about 15 gallons and put into the smaller tank and put my rock and fish over there.

I put in the live sand I bought from petco and then filled the tank up with salt water. Once the cloudy look was gone I tested the levels, which was yesterday.

This is what I got:

Salt level: Between 28 and 30.
pH level: 7.8
Ammonia level: 0.50
Nitrite level: 0.25
Nitrate level: 5

So last night I went to walmart and bought some Stress Zyme which was suppose to bring down the ammonia and nitrite levels.

Today I tested it and this is what I got:

Salt level: About 28.
pH level: 7.8
Ammonia level: 0.50
Nitrite level: 0.25
Nitrate level: 20

I dont know what to do.
I am scared if I leave my fish in the smaller tank they are gonna die.
I only have a hang on filter and no protein skimmer.

I also bought a Fluval 305 filter for my 55 gallon tank.
The guy told me that is what he uses and it works great.
I really need some advice and help on what to do.

My location is in the country and I really have nothing around here to help me. The only pet store is ran by a guy who told me undergravel was the best filter. Even they are closed for the holidays.

Thanks in advance for any advice and help!

[thagreek]

I am sorry the Ammonia level today is 0.25 not 0.50.

[thagreek]

Okay, I just tested again and all the levels are the same.
I have been reading around the forum and google with no luck.
I am stuck and dont know what to do.
My anemonies dont look so well.

[returnofsid]

Was the live sand you purchased from an existing tank? If so, it was probably stirred up quite a bit and now you're experiencing a bit of die off. Looks like your tank is cycling again. Watch your levels to determine when your cycle is complete.

[thagreek]

Originally Posted by returnofsid

Was the live sand you purchased from an existing tank? If so, it was probably stirred up quite a bit and now you're experiencing a bit of die off. Looks like your tank is cycling again. Watch your levels to determine when your cycle is complete.

No it was sealed in bags.

[rjs5134]

Certainly sounds like the tank is cycling again... You probably lost some denitrifying bacteria in the crushed coral. Maintain water quality with frequent water changes and wait it out. You also should slowly bring the salinity down a little and ph up a little. What kind of lights do you have for those anemones?