No water changes!!

[Silverwood]

Well, we are trying an experiment. We have 2 tanks set up, one is a natural reef tank, 120 gallon tank, 60 gallon fuge, octopus skimmer rated for a 300 gallon system, seio m2600, 2 x 250 watts MH, 2x110 watt VHO, UV in line, 250 lbs Live rock, 200 lbs of live sand, 4 pieces of soft coral, and 1 blue tang, one clown, 1 large goby, anemone, 2 cleaner shrimp, and 3 peppermint shrimp.
The other tank has, 120 gallon tank, 40 gallon sump, octopus skimmer rated at 200 gallons, Fluval fx5, seio 2600, 125 lbs Agrocrete, grunge, 200 lbs of live sand, in line UV, 2 yellow tangs, small goby, 1 clown, 2 cleaner shrimp, 3 peppermint shrimp.

Both tanks have cleanup crews and sand sifters, and snails. Both tanks share a 35 gallon auto top off system, filled with Aqua FX RO/DI. Aqua pro 3 with total of 13 controlled outlets. Ther is no other connection between these tanks other than the top off water.

Fuge light is on reverse of metal halides, also lighting is controlled by the aquapro 3 set to realtime temps, moon and lighting schedules.

Here is the test. Is it possible to keep these systems going, without any water changes at all?

Other than normal evaporation, and the RO/DI top off water, there is no fresh water added to these systems. On average, we make up around 5 gallons per tank per day. The tanks where started mid December 2007. So far are doing well. My biggest concern is Nitrates. The reef tank is maintaining at 2, while the “artificial” tank is at 10. All other levels are near normal, for tanks this young, the fish and coral seem to be doing fine.

We just had a LFS do a range of 21 tests and everything is either in range or just slightly under.

Thought this might pose some interesting reading for some of you. Any constructive advice is welcome. Wish I could log multiple tanks on the site…

Silverwood

[scooterman]

Well this is something I've seen personally & I'd say yes it can be done. I've seem several 500 Plus tanks that that have gone over two years with no changes & the tanks look great.
Is this normal, no not really but it can be done, I'd say good luck with your test!

[dibenni]

There is a Company in Vegas - I can't remember the name now but will look when I get home - that advertises that you never need to change the water in their aquariums.

It seems logical that it is possible - although I could not speak to their systems because I don't know anyone whose used them.

[Ninong]

Here is the test. Is it possible to keep these systems going, without any water changes at all?

You will have to add a certain amount of saltwater from time to time to replace salt creep and salt lost via protein skimming, otherwise your salinity will gradually decline over time. You will need to keep track of salinity and adjust it when necessary.

The question is not whether you can run an aquarium with no water changes at all, the question is whether there is any benefit to doing so. I can't see any good reason for doing this considering the obvious benefits to be had from occasional water changes. Even a 10% water change every other month is better than none at all.

What you are attempting has been tried before but most people change their minds after a year or so and do a water change.

Good luck!

[Ninong]

We just had a LFS do a range of 21 tests and everything is either in range or just slightly under.

No LFS is equipped to test everything that you would need to test if you wanted to run a reef aquarium indefinitely without water changes. And even if you sent off samples to a lab for expensive ICP-MS testing, there are things you can't test for, such as the various organic toxics excreted by some corals. Skimming is great and it removes many nasties that we don't want in our tanks but it doesn't remove everything.

Many people think of water changes as a way to replenish certain necessary elements that may have been depleted but they also act as a method of removing certain undesirable elements that may be concentrating.

We can never even come close to the dillution factor of the ocean, so one of the tools that we use to reduce risk is the regular water change. The ideal situation would be a location near the ocean, like the Monaco Aquarium or the Waikiki Aquarium, so that you could use a continuous flow of fresh seawater from the actual sea.

P.S. -- Off the top of my head, I can't think of any public aquarium that operates without water changes. Those that are near the sea use natural seawater and those that do not have access to seawater use artificial salt mixes. Considering the cost of salt mix, if there was any way possible to get by without water changes, it would have been done by now.

[Silverwood]

Kind of the input that I thought I might get. How can an aquarium with 3 million plus gallons of water do 10-20 percent water changes every few weeks? Not only would the cost of water be large, but the salt required would be a huge cost as well. Most large aquariums are located in major cities, the cost of that much water alone would make most keepers try artificial means to reduce the nasties in the water. 600,000 gallons of water every month, if only one water change was done in a month would be very expensive to a local aquarium.

[Ninong]

Kind of the input that I thought I might get.

Yes, I suspect this will be the standard advice that you will receive if you ask this question on other reefkeeping bulletin boards. Most people consider it good advice.

How can an aquarium with 3 million plus gallons of water do 10-20 percent water changes every few weeks?

I don't believe I mentioned anything about "an aquarium with 3 million plus gallons of water [doing] 10-20 percent water changes every few weeks." I didn't say how often public aquaria do water changes or the size of those water changes. If you are planning on building a public aquarium, you might want to look into that aspect.

While I haven't actually done any research into the exact size of the water changes or the frequency of them, I can tell you the methods used at a few large public aquaria that I am familiar with. Most of the world's largest aquaria are located near the sea so that they can have access to seawater. The most obvious exception to this would be the new Georgia Aquarium in Atlanta. The Georgia Aquarium used more than 1.5 million pounds of Instant Ocean salt mix for their initial setup. Their Ocean Voyager exhibit is 6.3 million gallons. The Shedd Aquarium in Chicago is another inland aquarium that uses Instant Ocean salt mix. The Instant Ocean salt mix that the public aquaria purchase comes in 1,000-lb sacks.

I don't know how frequently the Georgia Aquarium does water changes or the volume of the water changes but one point to remember is that the larger the aquarium, the less frequent and the smaller in size the water changes need to be. This holds true for your average-size home aquarium, too. Nano tanks require more frequent water changes than 300-gal tanks.

I can tell you that when the Audubon Aquarium of the Americas in New Orleans did their first water change on one of their exhibits, it shut down the local sewage treatment plant. And their exhibits are certainly not in the million-gallon range. Their Caribbean Reef exhibit is 132,000 gallons and their Gulf of Mexico exhibit is 400,000 gallons. The Audubon people had to work out a plan with the Sewage and Water Board that required advance notification of water changes so that the sewage treatment plant could handle the huge influx of saltwater. Unfortunately, the Aquarium of the Americas was knocked out of action by Hurricane Katrina, causing them to lose most of their fish. I know that they have reopened but I'm not sure if they have reopened their 400,000-gal Gulf of Mexico exhibit yet.

The Waikiki Aquarium in Honolulu is located adjacent to the ocean. All of their exhibits use natural saltwater from on-site saltwater wells. One of their exhibits, the 7,500-gal outdoor exhibit, has continuous flow of saltwater.

The Monaco Aquarium (Le Musee Oceanographique de Monaco) is located on the Mediterranean Sea and that is the source of all of their water. All of their exhibits are either open or semi-open. Unlike the Monterey Aquarium, they filter all of their seawater before using it. The Monterey Aquarium filters incoming seawater during the day only. The incoming seawater from Monterey Bay is not filtered at night. They do it that way on purpose to allow natural zooplankton and phytoplankton to come into their huge 1,000,000-gal exhibit.

The new Valencia Aquarium in Valencia, Spain (L'Oceanografic de Valencia) is located on the Mediterranean. They're using natural seawater.

Not only would the cost of water be large, but the salt required would be a huge cost as well.

Yes, I imagine that it is a huge cost. You would have to check with the various inland public aquaria to find out exactly how often and how large their water changes are if you're planning on building a large exhibit of any kind in Idaho.

600,000 gallons of water every month, if only one water change was done in a month would be very expensive to a local aquarium.

I don't know where you got this "600,000 gallons of water every month" figure from? The largest inland aquarium that I know of is the Georgia Aquarium. I have no idea of the frequency or the size of their water changes. If you're interested, you should ask them. In case you don't know this yet, there are very, very few public aquaria with individual exhibits in the 1,000,000-gal plus range.

If you're thinking of building a modest sized exhibit, you might want to contact Joe Yaiullo. He built the 20,000-gal reef aquarium at Atlantis Marine World on Long Island. Joe uses natural seawater but you might find this February 2007 article in Advanded Aquarist online magazine interesting. It includes detailed photos of the construction of his 20,000-gal reef aquarium.

Good luck!

[Silverwood]

No, not planning anything large, but looking at this problem on a large scale, makes the small tanks seem more managible.

I am however trying to see the reasoning behind, 10-20 percent water changes in a tank with a very small load, as compaired to say a 1,000,000 tank with a very small load.

Larger bodies are more stable. Is this do to the decreased load, or due to the decreased surface area to water volume.

I am still reading on all of these points, but looking for some good info as well. And thank you very much for yours !

That 600,000 should have been 60,000. Typo. That would equate to what a 1,000,000 gallon body of water would need to change out in order to keep the nasties down to normal levels. This is an estimation, based on load, enviroment, and base tests on local water, would be a reasonable number of gallons for a bi-weekly change.

Thanks again!

[Ninong]

There are no set rules for the size or frequency of water changes in hobbyist-size reef tanks. The only consensus seems to be that water changes are a good idea. There is no agreement on the size or frequency.

Leaving aside personal preferences, factors that must be taken into consideration include the bioload of the aquarium, the exact species kept, the age of the aquarium, etc. Really large tanks usually have a better dillution factor compared to smaller tanks. That's not always true but it's true more often than not, even in hobbyist tanks.

Individuals who have been successful keeping reef tanks in the 300-gal+ size range for several years don't all follow the same water change schedules but virtually all of them do perform water changes of some size from time to time. Some perform 10% water changes every six weeks and others perform 20% water changes every month. I do know of at least a few people who perform as little as one 5% water change every three months but they are definitely in the minority.

If I had to pick a number and say this is what most people do, I would say 15% every six weeks. Some do more and others less.

Some of the folks who do smaller and less frequent water changes are operating systems with attached refugia larger than their main display tanks. I know of one very famous reef aquarium in London where the main display tank is only about 1,200 gallons but the total system water volume is more than 4,000 gallons because of gigantic sumps and refugia that are part of the system. That provides a dillution factor that most hobbyists can only dream of.

[tvan]

My 2 cents......
A water change is a tool to try and help keep your system in balance. Every system has nitrates, every system has algae. The balance is "Your system being able to maintain the levels of things that to check and the look you want based on the environment you provide" If you can maintain your balance without a water change, don't do it. There is a ton of research on water changes and exporting nitrates through other means. Use the tools and reseach that work for your system.
But remember a quick fix can start a chain reaction ending in a crash.
Just my 2 cents....
Tvan

[weez1959]

But remember a quick fix can start a chain reaction ending in a crash.
Just my 2 cents....
Tvan

tell me about it!
I did 2 water changes from september to mid february because I had no time to do them (bad excuse but...) and I can tell you that it's not a good idea! It took a lot of work to get things back in balance so in the end you don't save time or salt.
Louise

[Hoonster]

I kept a reef aquarium for 3 years - made only 3 or 4 15% changes over that time. Filtration was using live rock, protein skimmer, and 3 or 4" sandbed. Nothing else. Stocking level was low, with a good balance of sand dwellers, corals and fish. Easiest tank I've ever owned.

[docjames]

 Not sure if anyone's going to see this post since I noticed the thread's over 3 years old.  Just like to share my experience with everyone.  I use ATS system to run my aquarium since April 2000.  I use automatic dosing system that a person in my country sells to replenish trace elements and add artificial salt from time to time.  I've never changed any water since day 1. My aquarium have Corals, soft corals and fishes in it. I do believe NO water changes can be done.  If there's any response, Ill take some photos and post it.

James M. Shih M.D. 
  

[pgsasi]

Please post pics of the tank and equipments. Thanks.

[docjames]

sure, will take some picture tomorrow. it's night time here in taiwan and all the corals are closed.

[pgsasi]

Any pics James ??

[docjames]

Any pics James ??

Sorry for taking so long. 1. my main display tank 2. Filtration system with ATS, added with a calcium reactor and a dosing machine for essential elements (sorry it's upside down (hate this iphone) 3. Lighting with 4 led lamps 4. Closer pix of the tank . Sorry if the photos are blurry, they were taken with an iphone. If you want a clearer picture, I do have a Nikon D3s to use.

James