[NanoReefer1]

Very interesting stuff everyone! Great great information! Now I am just beginning on my first Nano Reef (10gal), and the only question I have is if on the first fillup the same process should be followed in how the water was made or if it would be ok to let things sort themselves out in the tank with the live sand, and live rock for the first fillup. Also another question I have is if mixing with a sub propeller is necessary and if mixing by shaking a jug could be an alternative? Like at a half gallon at a time, and then adding to a bigger container and whisking or stirring?

Just wondering.


Thanks!

THE RIG
10 Gallon Tank (From Walmart)
Milliennium 200 Power Filter (160gph)
2 * Hydor Koralia 1 (2 * 400 gph - 3.5 Watts)
Nova Extreme HO Light Fixture - 2 x 24W - T5 24 in.
Visi-Therm Stealth Heater - 100W
Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Black Beach Reef Sand - 20 lb.

[leebca]

I moved your post into its own thread, since it is a special subject.

You posted this in the Saltwater (Fish-Only) Aquariums Forum. That is, this Forum is for those wanting to keep saltwater fishes.

The 10 gallon system, which will hold about 9 or less gallons of water, is not suitable for marine fishes in general. You want to read this: Fish Stocking Limit - for FO and FOWLR

Assuming you do not have any intention of putting marine fish into that display, then I would answer your questions as follows:
You do not want to use the tank as the salt water make up container on the first fill up IF there will be live rock and/or live sand in the tank. If the tank is empty of marine life forms, then it would be okay. Marine life will die if exposed to unmixed or fresh water.
Mixing by hand small batches to put together into a larger container is okay. Just be sure the final holding container has the proper readings for pH, temp. and salinity IF you will be making large water changes. Use tools that will not be affected (corroded, rust, dissolve, etc.) in salt water and use only plastics that don't leach chemicals into the water (most food-grade plastics are okay).

Small batch making may be okay, but you might want to consider just buying already prepared salt water from an LFS or, if near an ocean, find a source for clean natural sea water (NSW). I think if you consider value (expense, time, and quality) of purchasing prepared water vs. your own water, that the most valuable would be to purchase ready made water.

Since you are just starting off, you should give this a close read: Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

You won't be adding fish, but the above guideline will be very useful.

For help with a reef system, post in the Reef Aquariums Forum. There are a lot of experienced people to help out here at Reefland!

Good luck!

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NanoReefer1

...the only question I have is if on the first fillup the same process should be followed in how the water was made or if it would be ok to let things sort themselves out in the tank with the live sand, and live rock for the first fillup.

If I were you, I would mix the saltwater in a separate container first before adding it to the tank.

Also another question I have is if mixing with a sub propeller is necessary and if mixing by shaking a jug could be an alternative? Like at a half gallon at a time, and then adding to a bigger container and whisking or stirring?

I recommend you purchase a 10-gal Rubbermaid Brute container in white, yellow or gray. All Rubbermaid Brute containers in any size, as long as they are white, yellow or gray, are USDA Meat & Poultry Equipment Group listed and certified to NSF International Std. #2.

You should heat the water to the correct temperature first and then add the salt mix gradually, stirring after each addition. Then you should place either a powerhead or an air-stone in the container to aerate it. I usually place the lid loosely over the container so that there is about a half inch space between the lid and the rim to allow for air exchange. Allow the saltwater to age for at least three or four days before using. For your very first fillup, you could use it without aging it.

You could use a smaller container if you like but it should be large enough to accomodate at least three gallons. That would represent about a third of your tank's capacity.

Remember that you will need to check the temperature and salinity of the freshly mixed saltwater to make sure it matches what's already in your tank before making water changes. You might need to check pH also for such a small tank and if doing a relatively large water change. I've never bothered to check pH but I've never had a nano tank. When I add 17 gallons to a 120-gallon tank, it's no big deal. I just make sure the salinity and temperature match.

Bio-Activ Live Aragonite Black Beach Reef Sand - 20 lb.

There is no such thing as "aragonite black beach reef sand." That's an oxymoron. There are black sand beaches but none of them are aragonite. Black sand is volcanic in origin. Aragonite is white. The people selling black sand and calling it aragonite are morons!

You have already learned your first lesson in this hobby: You can't believe the advertising hype because much of it is just plain false. And in some cases it's so stupid it's hilarious!

[NanoReefer1]

Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Black Beach PremiumLive®Aragonite Reef Sand

• Collected in its natural environment and packaged in its natural state (U.S. Patent #'s: 6,376,299 & 6,939,708)
• Just place in tank, add saltwater (for best results use NutriSeawater®) the add fish, no waiting required.
• Instant ammonia cycling
• Perfect for most applications (except Undergravel filters)
• Reduces algae growth
• Sandsifter safe
• Digger friendly
• Deep sand bed

Item #: 20741
UPC: 029904207414
Grain size: 0.5-1.5mm
Packaged: 4 - 10 lb
(4.54 kg) Bgs/cs.
Net Weight: 40 lbs
18.14 kg Per cs.Item #: 10741
UPC: 029904107417
Grain size: 0.5-1.5mm
Packaged: 2-20 lb
(9.07 kg) Bgs/cs.
Net Weight: 40 lbs
18.14 kg Per cs.
Click here for printable version[link]http://www.naturesocean.com/live_sand.htm[/link]


The part you should pay attention to is this Collected in its natural environment and packaged in its natural state (U.S. Patent #'s: 6,376,299 & 6,939,708)

Therefore...Your wrong.

[zhenya]

Originally Posted by NanoReefer1

The part you should pay attention to is this Collected in its natural environment and packaged in its natural state (U.S. Patent #'s: 6,376,299 & 6,939,708)

Therefore...Your wrong.

It is ludicrous, and no, you are wrong and not Ninong.
Do a search using keyword aragonite and you should get a lot of information regarding this topic. Like this for example.
Don't believe everything you read on the bags.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by NanoReefer1

Bio-Activ Live® Aragonite Black Beach
The part you should pay attention to is this Collected in its natural environment and packaged in its natural state (U.S. Patent #'s: 6,376,299 & 6,939,708)

Therefore...Your wrong.

NanoReefer1,

Are you telling me that I'm wrong?

Do you have any clue whatsoever what you're talking about? Obviously not. Perhaps you are a very young person and are unfamiliar with the concept of false advertising?

There is no such thing as "black aragonite sand."

Aragonite is not black. It's white. All black sand beaches are volcanic in origin. In Hawaii there are white sand beaches and black sand beaches. The black sand is volcanic in origin and the white sand is calcareous.

U.S. Patent# 6,376,299, issued April 23, 2002 is for: Capacitor for semiconductor memory device and method of manufacturing the same

Obviously that patent has nothing to do with sand for aquariums. I wonder why they stuck that one in their ad? If you decide to call them to tell them that we're all laughing at them and their "black aragonite sand," ask them how a patent for a "capacitor for semiconductor memory device and method of manufacturing the same" has anything to do with sand for marine aquariums.

U.S. Patent#6,939,708, issued Sept. 6, 2005, is for: Method of rapid bio-cycling of an aquarium

Abstract

A method of rapid biochemical cycling of aquariums using naturally preserved granular marine substrate material, such as sand or aragonite, to rapidly denitrify the aquatic environment and to establish biochemical conditions that are favorable to the survival and viability of fish, crustaceans, invertebrates, and other marine aquatic life. The method includes the steps of harvesting and packaging marine sand such that marine microorganisms, in the form of biofilm attached to the sand, are preserved with an optimal amount of water and air in retail packaging specifically dimensioned and configured for maintaining ammonia oxidizing bacteria in a state wherein the bacteria are capable of metabolic and physiologic activity after prolonged periods at room temperature. Harvesting and packaging marine microorganisms according to the disclosed method allows for widespread distribution to consumers through conventional retail sales channels. Rapid biochemical cycling of an aquarium is achieved by introducing the contents of the packaging into an aquarium whereby marine microorganism biofilm instantly contributes to establishing a healthy aquatic environment by reducing harmful ammonia levels and through denitrification.

The second patent does not in any way tell you that their black sand is aragonite sand. It isn't. And they would know that if they weren't a bunch of morons!

Let this be a lesson for you. You can't always believe what you read in the advertising copy put out by the various manufacturers who are only interested in separating you from your money.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by zhenya

It is ludicrous, and no, you are wrong and not Ninong.
Do a search using keyword aragonite and you should get a lot of information regarding this topic. Like this for example.
Don't believe everything you read on the bags.

zhenya,

You beat me to it. I took too long looking up the stupid patent numbers the manufacturer threw in their ad.

I wouldn't be too hard on NanoReefer1. He's probably just a young person and not familiar with just how much of the stuff you read from the manufacturers is just plain BS.

The part about "black aragonite sand" is really a good one. That's hilarious!

I'm tempted to send them an email telling them we're all making fun of them over here for being such a bunch of morons.

[NanoReefer1]

Well I looked under the second patent number (not the non-semi conductor one), and found that basically it is seeded black sand in a bag.


End of story...

Basically got a supped up version of tihitian moon sand....

The only other thing I have to go on is that it says it is 100% natural and alot of people have had success with it before.

Hopefully I will have the same.

Just got my tank up and running 1.028SG but I took the measurement with the heat of the tank being no where near 80 so we will see tomorrow.


More than anything I think earlier I got angry because I feel as though I am being looked down on by some sort of know-it-all kind of attitude. Yea im a beginning aquarist but at the same time I have done hours of reading to just get to this point...

idk...w/e maybe im just being overly sensitive.

[SalTee]

Just to throw in my two cents- don't feel too bad Nanoreefer- even the best can forget that they were beginners once, and your still learning, and I dare ANYBODY in this room to say they've never been fooled by phoney advertising. Peace.

[hobokin]

before u call nanoreefer1 an idiot for his purchase, or Nature's Ocean a bunch of morons, perhaps you could have done more research yourself about the chemical makeup of aragonite vs the "black aragonite". aragonite is a calcium carbonate based substrate and is typically white. black sand is comprised of volcanic materials....high in mineral content. however, the black sand is still a calcium carbonate based material, known as calcite, onyx, or basalt. the only differance between aragonite and calcite is that calcite has iron, more magnesium and other trace minerals. in the research i found on calcite and onyx and aragonite, i discovered that all these rocks can be found naturally in varying colors. seachem has two substrates on the market right now (grey coast, and onyx sand) that are both perfect examples of what is essentially aragonite, but better. my guess is that Nature's Ocean, rather than go into the chemical break down of the calcium carbonate substrate, between aragonite, basalt, dolamite, onyx, or calcite, kept their market simple and called it aragonite.

the sand he got should actually have a better buffering capacity than aragonite.

btw, the tahitian moon sand by super naturals, isn't naturally collected, isn't natural in it's composition, has no buffering capacity as it has no calcium, strontium, or magenesium, and actually is comprised of silica. basalt and calcite both tend to be quite low in silicate composition.

[Ninong]

Hi hobokin,

Originally Posted by hobokin

perhaps you could have done more research yourself about the chemical makeup of aragonite vs the "black aragonite". aragonite is a calcium carbonate based substrate and is typically white.

Aragonite is not simply a calcium carbonate based substrate, it IS calcium carbonate (CaCO3). Aragonite sand is not typically white, it IS white, and ONLY white. Perhaps you are confusing pure aragonite sand, which is what is sold in the marine aquarium hobby, with impure aragonite contained in terrestrial substrata?

ALL of the aragonite sand sold in this hobby comes from the same place in the Bahamas. In fact, all of the aragonite sand in the world comes from the same place. It is the only commercial aragonite sand operation in the world. It's run by Marcona Ocean Industries.

black sand is comprised of volcanic materials....high in mineral content. however, the black sand is still a calcium carbonate based material,...

ALL of the black sand beaches around the world are composed of volcanic lava that explodes when the hot lava hits the cool ocean water. ALL of them. Without exception! There are NO black sand beaches composed of black calcium carbonate. The only difference between aragonite crystals and calcite crystals is their shape. Both are calcium carbonate. Calcite contains more magnesium than aragonite. High magnesium calcite (CaCO3 containing more than 4% MgCO3) and low magnesium calcite (CaCO3 containing less than 4% MgCO3). Most low magnesium calcite comes from aragonite-to-calcite diagenesis.

...the black sand is still a calcium carbonate based material known as calcite, onyx, or basalt.

Who told you that one? The manufacturer? If it was naturally collected, as they claim, then it's basalt lava that exploded when it hit the cool ocean waters.

... the only differance between aragonite and calcite is that calcite has iron, more magnesium and other trace minerals. in the research i found on calcite and onyx and aragonite, i discovered that all these rocks can be found naturally in varying colors.

Rocks! Of course they can. That's because "rocks" can contain just about anything. We're not talking about rocks, we're talking about aragonite sand. Why would anyone in their right mind want to put crushed "rocks" into their reef tank instead of nice, pure, white aragonite sand?

seachem has two substrates on the market right now (grey coast, and onyx sand) that are both perfect examples of what is essentially aragonite,...

Neither of those products is aragonite, essentially or otherwise.

Nature's Ocean, rather than go into the chemical break down of the calcium carbonate substrate, between aragonite, basalt, dolamite, onyx, or calcite, kept their market simple and called it aragonite.

Nature's Ocean's ad copy for that product is misleading. It's NOT "black aragonite" as they claim. It's not aragonite. Period. They claim it's naturally collected. If so, then it's volcanic sand from one of the many black beaches around the world, all of which are volcanic in origin. You don't see Carib-Sea claiming that their black sand is "black aragonite." That's because they're not stupid like Nature's Ocean.

the sand he got should actually have a better buffering capacity than aragonite.

It will have ZERO buffering capacity. And even if it were calcite, which it isn't, it still wouldn't have "better buffering capacity" than aragonite because aragonite begins to dissolve at a pH of 7.7 and below and calcite doesn't begin to dissolve until the pH drops below 7.4. Why would you think that black volcanic sand would have any buffering capacity at all? And, assuming you still think it's some sort of "black" calcite, what makes you think it would buffer better than aragonite when it doesn't even begin to dissolve in seawater until the pH drops below 7.4, which is much lower than aragonite?

It's interesting that you dug up a thread that is three months old for your first post on the board. My guess is that you either work for an LFS selling Nature's Ocean sand products or you work for Nature's Ocean. In either case, you seem to have a lot of strange ideas about aragonite sand.

[hobokin]

the reason for my post....was that i wanted to set up a nano system using black sand and have had a hell of a time finding anything purely or mostly black that wasn't silica based. this thread had popped up after i found the Nature's Ocean product. before, i had found info on black beaches and on looking for gold in black sand rifts (which was quite interesting btw), but looking at calcite and onyx, it seemed that calcite has a better buffering capacity than aragonite (that is seachem's claim btw, for their greycoast substrate).

i made assumptions. i was wrong.

i guess here's a question than....what black colored sand will maintain buffer?
the cheapo aquarium sand will not, nor will super naturals. i have faith in seachem's onyx and grey-coast products (except i was hoping for black, while they are light to moderate grey). shouldn't nature's ocean be able to buffer the water if it's calcium carbonate?

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by hobokin

...what black colored sand will maintain buffer?

None.

i have faith in seachem's onyx and grey-coast products (except i was hoping for black, while they are light to moderate grey).

Ask Seachem where they get their grey coast product. That should be interesting. I don't know of anyone who has been able to find out. If you're interested in that product, one of the members of the board (Poseidon) is using it. You might ask him for his opinion of it.

...shouldn't nature's ocean be able to buffer the water if it's calcium carbonate?

Any of the Nature's Ocean sand products that are actually aragonite sand will provide a certain amount of buffering capacity. That amount, whatever it actually is, will be a lot less than proponents believe and certainly not enough to maintain anything.

Dr. Rob Toonen ran some experiments designed as a comparison of plenum vs. non-plenum systems but we learned from his results that fine particle aragonite sand beds provide more buffering capacity than coarse particle aragonite sand beds of an equal depth. He used sugar-sized aragonite sand (Southdown Play Sand) for the fine particle beds and Florida crushed coral for the coarse particle beds. He compared sand beds depths of 3.6" vs. 1" with fine particle sand vs. crushed coral for each depth and with or without a plenum.

That fine particle aragonite sand beds would provide somewhat better buffering capacity than coarse particle aragonite sand beds of equal depth seems self-evident but it was confirmed by Rob's experiments which were actually designed for a different purpose.

The extent to which calcite sand beds buffer has not been measured, as far as I know. I think it's safe to say that aragonite would be superior in this respect. However, even deep sand beds (>3") composed of mostly fine particle aragonite sand will not maintain anything all by themselves. They're good but not as good as some people think. I think Dr. Jean Jaubert's original claims in this respect may have been overstated.

[hobokin]

ninong,

sorry for being an a$$. it just irked me that the new nano guy was gettin ripped for his aparent poor choice in sand.

i appreciate the info you've provided, it's been quite helpful.
i guess i just don't want araganite b/c everybody has it. i want a different look for the tank, without sacrificing buffering capabilities (or at least, having no buffering capabilities). although, in a 6 gallon nano, a buffering sand isn't needed since i won't have a deep enough sand bed to create the acidic conditions. i was really just trying to avoid silica based sands so i didn't deal with any excessive diatom growth. in that sense then, nature's ocean, seachem's onyx/ grey coast, or aragalive are all safe bets, where as tahitian moon sand or those cheapo black sands are out.

[Ninong]

Originally Posted by hobokin

ninong,

sorry for being an a$$. it just irked me that the new nano guy was gettin ripped for his aparent poor choice in sand.

He was NOT being ripped. The manufacturer was being ripped for false advertising claims. Nature's Ocean claims they are selling "black aragonite" sand. That claim is false. It's not aragonite at all. Carib-Sea sells the exact same product and they do NOT call it aragonite.

i appreciate the info you've provided, it's been quite helpful.

You're welcome.

i guess i just don't want araganite b/c everybody has it.

Maybe there's a reason everybody chooses aragonite sand? Maybe it's the best way to go?

i want a different look for the tank, without sacrificing buffering capabilities (or at least, having no buffering capabilities).

Buffering capabilities have been overstated. That being said, I used a 6" DSB of fine particle aragonite sand in my 120-gal tank and I can't imagine running a reef tank without an aragonite sand bed. I might alter the particle size mix for different applications and I might reduce the depth of the sand bed to as little as 3" for some applications but I would always choose aragonite sand and nothing but aragonite sand.

i was really just trying to avoid silica based sands so i didn't deal with any excessive diatom growth.

In my opinion, it would be foolish to put quartz (SiO2) sand in a little nano tank but not because it would cause any diatom growth. Quartz (silica) sand does NOT dissolve in seawater. Therefore, it cannot contribute to diatom growth. The silicate is coming from the water, not the quartz sand, unless you have a lot of impurities in your quartz sand.

Virtually all newly set up reef tanks will go through a brief diatom bloom as part of the natural cycle. Once the available silicate has been exhausted, the diatom bloom usually disappears all by itself, usually within two weeks. Diatoms require silicate for the structure of their cell walls. If there is not enough available silicate, there will be no diatoms to speak of. They will be there in the sand bed but you won't actually see them with the naked eye because their numbers won't get out of hand.

in that sense then, nature's ocean, seachem's onyx/ grey coast, or aragalive are all safe bets, where as tahitian moon sand or those cheapo black sands are out.

You can put whatever you want in a 6-gal nano tank and it won't make any difference. The black volcanic sands won't harm anything. There are thriving coral reefs off black sand beaches everywhere you have volcanic islands in the tropics. So black volcanic sands do no harm. The same can be said for quartz sand beaches. If quartz sand actually dissolved, then we would be able to measure elevated levels of silicate in the water near quartz sand beaches.