Problem new tank cycling?

[CMOS]

Hello All,

I have a 50 super high that I'm making a reef tank out of. Here are the details:

Tank set up (w/ Supreme Skilter 250 filter, twin Actinic Blues & 175W Metal Halide) about one month ago with base rock (dead). Ran for 2 weeks (no ammonia) and then I added about 35 pounds of good quality freshly harvested live rock. 2 weeks after the introduction of the LR I still had 0 ammonia and nitrite, however I do have about 15-20ppm of Nitrate, and a very prosperous bloom of brown algae (diatoms).

I am unsure why I didn't see the cycle go through ammonia and nitrite, yet now I am seeing the Nitrate.

Is it possible since my live rock probably had little dead stuff on it that the tank did go through the ammonia and nitrite cycle, but on a level too low for my test kit?

Thoughts?

Since I "thought" I was on the back side of the cycle, a couple days ago I added 2 small frags of soft corals - and they do not appear to be happy at all (not coming out).

Another note - In the next couple of days I'll be adding an Eheim with some bio media and carbon.

Thanks for any responses/suggestions.

CMOS

[tholleyh46]

Hmm, was the rock cured or freshly harvested? I'd generally go 6 weeks on curing LR myself but check the silicates and phosphates for the diatoms, generally diatoms are a sign after the cycle has ran. I'll bump this up and maybe you'll get some better attention, good luck!

[CMOS]

Hmm, was the rock cured or freshly harvested? I'd generally go 6 weeks on curing LR myself but check the silicates and phosphates for the diatoms, generally diatoms are a sign after the cycle has ran. I'll bump this up and maybe you'll get some better attention, good luck!

I believe the LR was freshly harvested. Sat in the LFS for about one week before I picked it up. I pre-purchased this rock and purposely left it in the LFS tank for a week to cure a bit).


CMOS

[Ninong]

Hello All,

Hello, CMOS.

Tank set up (w/ Supreme Skilter 250 filter,

You should think about replacing this thing with a decent skimmer. There are several nice hang-on skimmers that would be better than this.

...about one month ago with base rock (dead). Ran for 2 weeks (no ammonia) and then I added about 35 pounds of good quality freshly harvested live rock. 2 weeks after the introduction of the LR I still had 0 ammonia and nitrite,...

That's two weeks in your tank and another week in the tank at your LFS. The cycle was completed, you just didn't catch it on your test kits. In fact, the ammonia and nitrite may have spiked before you even picked up this rock.

...however I do have about 15-20ppm of Nitrate, and a very prosperous bloom of brown algae (diatoms).

Fivteen-twenty ppm NO3 is really low at this stage. The diatom bloom is perfectly natural and an expected part of the cycle. This stage usually lasts no more than 10 days. It should go away on its own once available silicates have been exhausted.

I am unsure why I didn't see the cycle go through ammonia and nitrite, yet now I am seeing the Nitrate.

Is it possible since my live rock probably had little dead stuff on it that the tank did go through the ammonia and nitrite cycle, but on a level too low for my test kit?

It happened before you ran your first tests for ammonia and nitrite. You missed it.

Since I "thought" I was on the back side of the cycle, a couple days ago I added 2 small frags of soft corals - and they do not appear to be happy at all (not coming out).

What exactly did you add? Maybe they will perk up in another couple of days.

Another note - In the next couple of days I'll be adding an Eheim with some bio media and carbon.

An Eheim what? An Eheim canister filter with bio media and carbon? Get a decent protein skimmer instead. Or ditch the Skilter contraption and run the Eheim with just carbon or maybe carbon and ROWA-phos or another similar phosphate sponge.

You don't need "bio media" outside the tank if you have live rock inside the tank. The live rock is the only bio media you need. It also helps to have a decent sand bed. Do you have a sand bed? If so, how deep is it and exactly what is it composed of?

Good luck!



P.S. -- Have you added any fish yet? And I forgot to ask if you're using R.O./D.I. water to make up your saltwater? If not, what is the source of your freshwater?

[CMOS]

Ninong,

Thanks for the thorough replies. My responses:

I will consider getting another skimmer in the future. My brother has had a Skilter 250 on his reef tank for about a year and his tank is amazing. My observations over the last year is that the skimmer feature on his Skilter seems to work like a charm. It pulls a LOT of crapola out of that tank, but I understand the importance of a top notch Skimmer.

The frags I added contained a Button Polyp and a Candycane Coral. I also added a Frogspawn coral, and a Firefish goby at the same time.

Yes, an Eheim canister filter. I was thinking about going the route that you suggest - cabon and some type of nitrate/phosphate absorber. Thanks for the confirmation.

Substrate is Caribbean Live Sand, about 2 full inches.

My water source - a well. Seriously. I'm a bit out of the city so I'm on a well and I'm sure its mineral-laden water. As of now, I will be doing some partial water changes with Distilled water until I get my RO system in.

One other thing - my water temperature the last couple of days has been about 69-70 degrees, so I'm going to have to get a heater in there as I understand that a bit too low for a reef. Agreed?

I have not yet seen the Firefish Goby that I put in 2 days ago.

Thanks for any and all suggestions.

CMOS

[Ninong]

I will soon begin to do some water changes with distilled water in lieu of the well water "out in these here parts."

Yes, that's a good idea.

[Ninong]

One other thing - my water temperature the last couple of days has been about 69-70 degrees, so I'm going to have to get a heater in there as I understand that a bit too low for a reef. Agreed?

Holy Cow! Yes, get a heater right away. "Sixty-nine to 70 degrees is much too low for a reef tank. I'm surprised your coral frags are still alive at all.

Personally I don't think a reef tank should be operated at anything lower than 78 degrees Fahrenheit but there are some people who still run them around 75-76 F. I would recommend a low of 78-79 F in the winter rising to 80-83 F in the summer. There are lots of possibilities when it comes to temperature and everybody has a different opinion, but 69-70 degrees would be a cool tank more suitable for temperate species, not a tropical reef tank.

[tholleyh46]

How far away from the water are the MHs? I've never needed a heater w/ MHs? Just curious.

[CMOS]

How far away from the water are the MHs? I've never needed a heater w/ MHs? Just curious.

The actual *bulb* is 9-10" from the water's surface.

Also - with a newly arrived cold front, my house has been about 69-70 degrees for the last 2 days.

CMOS

[tholleyh46]

I think I'm in that same cold front, but still at about 78 degrees, will keep an eye out.

[Ninong]

I think I'm in that same cold front, but still at about 78 degrees, will keep an eye out.

That cold front finally reached me today. It was 79 Christmas day, 80 the day after Christmas and 81 yesterday. It's been in the mid-50's today. Finally. I was getting tired of having to run my A/C this time of the year.

[CMOS]

Just a little update: I added a small packet of Boyd's Chemi-Pure to my Skilter and in about 24 hours my Nitrates dropped to somewhere between 0 & 5ppm. Pretty remarkable stuff. When the wiffy and I got home today after work I immediately noticed that the brown algae (diatoms) had changed in color from dark brown to a lighter brown. I'm thinking this is the beginning of a reduction trend.

I also added a 200W Hydor heater and suspect that by morning I'll have the tank up in the 77-78 degree range.

Since I'm in the electronics business I'm building another timer circuit to control my Metal Halides on a different time schedule than the twin Actinic Blues. I'm going to run the Actinics about 10 hours a day and run the Metal Halide only from about Noon to 6 PM to simulate more realistic lighting conditions. I will have the Actinics and the Metal Halides on 2 different timer circuits, each being fully programmable.

More details to follow. Thank you all for your opinions and suggestions.

CMOS
CMOS

[Ninong]

I'm going to run the Actinics about 10 hours a day and run the Metal Halide only from about Noon to 6 PM to simulate more realistic lighting conditions.

If you're trying to simulate natural "lighting conditions," then you should have the actinics on for at least 12 hrs/day and the metal halides on for at least 9 hrs/day.

Near the equator, days and nights are approximately 12 hrs each all year and the sun is high in the sky within an hour after sunrise.

P.S. -- I think an ideal lighting schedule would have the actinics on for 13 hrs/day and the metal halides on for 10 hrs/day. Have the actinics come on two hours before the halides and go off one hour after the halides. To get better growth, increase the halides to 11 hrs/day. I don't like to go more than 13 hrs/day on the actinics and 11 hrs/day on the halides because longer than that messes with the fish's natural sleeping cycles.

Do NOT run the actinics for more than 14 hrs/day or the halides for more than 12 hrs/day. That's as far as you can stretch things without causing problems with zooxanthellate photosynthetic cycles.

[CMOS]

Good advice Ninong. I'll play with the lighting schedule.

An update: my Nitrates are still at 0 - AND - the Firefish Goby has appeared, and was hungry! He's looking good.

The bad: The 2 corals I removed and put back in my brother's tank appear to be deader than a doornail, although I did ask him to not touch them for a month to see if they come back.

We'll see how things progress.

CMOS

[CMOS]

An update 1-5-09:

Nitrates still at zero (for the kit that I have...) but I still have a buttload of brown algae (diatoms). I've been running the Actinics about 10 hours a day and the MH for only about 2-3 hours.

Based on what I've read, I'm guessing I still have enough nitrates, phosphates, and silicates (from my tap water) to keep these diatoms healthy. Correct?

I plan to begin 5 gallon water changes a couple time a week to slowly replace the tap water with Distilled Water. Is this the right direction? Any other suggestions?

I do have a couple Turbo snails, and they are helping but not really reducing the bloom.

Thanks for any help.

CMOS

[tholleyh46]

Have you tried a phosphate reducer? I've had luck with PhosGuard, I'm sure there are many others as well. It seemed to work okay.

[Ninong]

A diatom bloom is a natural part of the cycle. I wouldn't worry about it unless it doesn't go away on its own after two weeks. Usually the silicate is depleted within about 10 days and the diatoms sort of go away on their own. They go away to the point that you really don't see them anymore, although they're always present to a certain degree.

You could begin a regular schedule of water changes whenever you're ready. I don't think I did my first water change until about six weeks after setting up my tank. I probably would have done one sooner if I had started with uncured live rock but I started with fully cured live rock. And I had no nuisance algae at all during my cycle, just the diatom bloom. I had nuisance red turf algae several months later that took me about a year to defeat.

[Ninong]

Have you tried a phosphate reducer? I've had luck with PhosGuard, I'm sure there are many others as well. It seemed to work okay.

Yes, there are many others and almost all of them are ferric oxide hydroxide. PhosGuard is alumina (Al2O3), aluminum trioxide, pellets. In saltwater, alumina pellets release toxic aluminum. GFC (granular ferric oxide) is much safer than alumina for use in a reef tank. I have no idea why SeaChem continues to use this stuff after virtually all of the other manufacturers have switched to iron-based phosphate sponge products. Just as I have no idea why they add extra boric acid to their salt mix, resulting in more than double NSW concentration of boron. Okay, I actually do know why they do that (to boost total alkalinity), but it's not a good idea at all.

Believe me, they actually do know better but they refuse to change.

[CMOS]

Have you tried a phosphate reducer? I've had luck with PhosGuard, I'm sure there are many others as well. It seemed to work okay.

In the mail as we type. I'm going to use Bio-Chem Zorb, and those partial water changes I mentioned above.

While doing these partials I'll also try to vacuum the bottom and live rack face for any loose sediment/dead organics.


CMOS