New tank not cycling

[Seige]

New 55g reef tank set up 9 days ago. Filter and 1 water jet (I know it needs 2) but no sump/skimmer yet. Approx 40 pounds of live rock so far. Store said the system should start cycling right away with their rock. Lots of crap off the rocks and some black spots on the rocks that store said to leave for now to trigger the cycle. They won't sell us any fish or invertebrates until cyclings complete.

Ammonia's still at 0ppm.

Nitrite 0ppm.
Nitrate 0ppm.
calcium 460ppm.
KH 250.6 ppm and dropping.
pH 8.2.
phosphate 0ppm.
Temp 76.
Salt 1.024.

added chlorine remover first day and the bio starter on first and 8th days.
lights on 10-12 hours a day.
smells fishy when i go near the filter.

guess that's it...

Won't be able to get to the store to have them test the water for a few days so I figured I'd ask here. Why isn't it cycling? It's not possible it completed cycling in 6 days is it? We didn't test water the first week. oops!

Also should I be setting up the quarantine tank so it can complete cycling or wait until the main tanks done and transfer water then?

[asimp43]

The cycling process can take a while sometimes. I highly doubt that the tank cycled in a week and would probably bet on it. If all you have is live rock then it will probably take a month or to. Just keep monitoring it with your test and I know that it's very hard but BE PATIENT. It will be worth the wait.

[Seige]

Thanks. I wasn't concerned until the store manager said he was surprised and he'd have expected it to be cycling within the first couple days with the LR he sold us. Wasn't sure if we did something wrong in our rush to get the system set up before the LR died. The tank and LR was a xmas gift and I've been working hard (and going broke lol) trying to learn everything.

Black and white spots appear to be growing on the LR. Everything else seems normal. Not sure if I need to upgrade lighting that came with the set. I do have some T5's but not installed yet. They are for a longer 48" hood and wanted to see if I could find T5's to go into the 24" hood.

Should I begin cycling the 20g QT now or wait until the 55g RT is done and transfer water and/or LR to the QT?

[CMOS]

The cycling process can take a while sometimes. I highly doubt that the tank cycled in a week and would probably bet on it. If all you have is live rock then it will probably take a month or to. Just keep monitoring it with your test and I know that it's very hard but BE PATIENT. It will be worth the wait.

+1

Be patient. That's your most valuable resource.

Get your temp up a bit to 78-80 degrees and WAIT.

Was your live rock cured? Was it freshly harvested? This will make a difference. I recently went through the same thing. I missed the Ammonia and Nitrites and just caught the Nitrate cycle (15-20PPM). Had a huge Brown Algae bloom (diatoms) and finally settled down over the last few days. Nothing happens to your schedule with a marine tank. Everything takes time, and understanding. BTDT. ;)

What is your water source? Tap? DI? RO?


CMOS

[Seige]

+1

Be patient. That's your most valuable resource.

Yup. Expected it to take 2 months until the store was "surprised" it hadn't started cycling.

Get your temp up a bit to 78-80 degrees and WAIT.

will do thanks ;-)

Was your live rock cured? Was it freshly harvested? This will make a difference.

What is your water source? Tap? DI? RO?

CMOS

Not sure if the rock was cured. It appears to be Tonga Fusion rock or something that looks like it. They didn't tell us to cure it. A week after we put it in the tank they said is it's likely it has worms in it that we'll need to remove before adding fish. They also said to scrub the rock regularly after the tank cycles.

Regular tap water. They said we don't need RO/DI.

I've been in surgery this week and the tank and LR was a surprise xmas gift so none of this was planned.

TopFin60 started making a slurping noise and spewing water from the inflow last night so I unplugged it overnight. After reading up on the filter it looks like I'll need to upgrade it. I'll probably move this one from the 55g to the 20g QT when I set it up.

If I switch filters will it affect the cycling?

[CMOS]

NO, switching filters won't effect the cycling.

About the water - if you're really going to do a reef tank (not fish-only), then you will need to use DI/RO water. If you use tap water you'll have to deal with nitrate, phosphate, and silicate issues in the near future. I did.

I suggest you look at a Remora Protein Skimmer. Reasonably priced with excellent reputations. I'll be buying one myself shortly.

I went through the same thing you are - a delayed cycle. I must have had a very very low ammonia and nitrite cycle because they never showed up on my test kits. One day, the nitrates where there in the 15-20ppm range. Had me confused pretty good. My tank seems to be pretty stable now, except for a little nitrate residual and a pretty good brown algae bloom (diatoms), partially due to using TAP WATER.

Good luck!

CMOS

[Seige]

NO, switching filters won't effect the cycling.

About the water - if you're really going to do a reef tank (not fish-only), then you will need to use DI/RO water. If you use tap water you'll have to deal with nitrate, phosphate, and silicate issues in the near future. I did.

Where would I get RO/DI water that's reef tank safe? Is it better to get a RO/DI water filter and if so what make/model?

I suggest you look at a Remora Protein Skimmer. Reasonably priced with excellent reputations. I'll be buying one myself shortly.

I have a Fission 8106 recirculating skimmer unboxed. Is that reasonable or should I upgrade it? I can trade it in for a RedSea skimmer. They were out of stock at the time. I can afford it, so I'd rather go overboard for the fishies then save a few bucks.

Good luck!

CMOS

Thanks! Need all the advice I can get. Reading up a lot but a lot of advice is contradictory or assumes a certain level of knowledge.

[CMOS]

RO/DI water: Most of the grocery store and Wal-Marts that have those nifty water machines are indeed RO/DI water systems. Or, yes, you could buy a system yourself for around 100 bucks. Get one in the 35-50 gallon per day that has a filter efficienty of 98-99%. Some of the higher volume units 100+ GPD only remove 90%.

That 8106 Skimmer is more than enough (provided you have a sump???). I see no reason to replace it. And I do agree with you that it's better to overkill on certain pieces of equipment.

I have also read/heard some conflicting advice but as you read/hear more, you'll see trends that will hold true and consistent. It won't take long for you to see a more clear path as to your direction.

Hey, blow some money, get some stuff, learn more, blow some more money, get some more stuff, etc., etc.,......

CMOS

[Ninong]

Not sure if the rock was cured.

If the rock had just arrived, then it probably was not fully cured. On the other hand, if it had been sitting in the store's live rock storage/curing vat for a couple of weeks, then it was probably fully cured or close to it when you got it.

They didn't tell us to cure it.

This would be fine as long as the rock had been in their tanks for a couple of weeks or more. It would have been a mistake to add uncured, or semi-cured, live rock to a tank that already housed fish and invertebrates. If your tank was a new set-up with no livestock, then it's perfectly fine to cure the live rock in the tank. It's best to wait two or three weeks -- or even four or five weeks -- after the live rock has cycled before adding any livestock. No need to rush things.

A week after we put it in the tank they said is it's likely it has worms...

Good! Most worms are beneficial scavengers. It's certainly possible to get some bad guys every once in a while but most of them are good guys and there is no need to remove the good guys.

... in it that we'll need to remove before adding fish.

Not true.

They also said to scrub the rock regularly after the tank cycles.

Only if you have some obvious die-off on the surface of the live rock that needs to be removed -- dead or dying sponges, etc. And it would have been better to scrub stuff like that off before putting the live rock in your tank, not after.

Regular tap water. They said we don't need RO/DI.

Regular tapwater can be risky for several reasons. It's fine if your tapwater is really, really good. Unfortunately, tapwater is not really, really good in most areas. Tapwater that meets standards for human consumption may be totally unsuitable for delicate invertebrates.

I've been in surgery this week and the tank and LR was a surprise xmas gift so none of this was planned.

I hope you make a speedy recovery.

If I switch filters will it affect the cycling?

No.

Where would I get RO/DI water that's reef tank safe? Is it better to get a RO/DI water filter and if so what make/model?

There are many different makes and models of R.O./D.I. filtration systems. In the meantime, you could use distilled water (around US$0.59/gal here in the states) or "drinking" water sold in the front of Wal-Mart Supercenters. Do NOT buy "drinking" water sold in gallon jugs unless you know exactly what you're getting. Do NOT use "spring" water or "mineral" water.

The Wal-Mart Supercenters in the U.S. sell bulk "drinking" water from a do-it-yourself vending maching in the front of the store. Down here it's only US$0.25/gal if you bring your own containers. That water is R.O. water that passes through a U.V. filter as it is being dispensed. They also sell it in their containers right next to the vending machine at a higher price. It's just R.O., not R.O./D.I. but it's okay for the time being until you have an established tank with lots and lots of SPS corals. R.O. water can contain phosphates that are usually removed in the D.I. cartridge. So R.O./D.I. is better for a reef aquarium but R.O. water is okay for most applications.

Later on, you might want to consider buying an R.O./D.I. filter system.

[Seige]

RO/DI water: Most of the grocery store and Wal-Marts that have those nifty water machines are indeed RO/DI water systems. Or, yes, you could buy a system yourself for around 100 bucks. Get one in the 35-50 gallon per day that has a filter efficienty of 98-99%. Some of the higher volume units 100+ GPD only remove 90%.

Thanks. Think I'll buy one. Lugging water around our local busy Wal-Mart entrance doesn't sound appealing. Not sure they have one of those anyway. Never seen it.

That 8106 Skimmer is more than enough (provided you have a sump???). I see no reason to replace it. And I do agree with you that it's better to overkill on certain pieces of equipment.

Bro and I will be making a custom sump/refugium to fit in the bottom of the tank cabinet once we get the cabinet.

I have also read/heard some conflicting advice but as you read/hear more, you'll see trends that will hold true and consistent. It won't take long for you to see a more clear path as to your direction.

Hey, blow some money, get some stuff, learn more, blow some more money, get some more stuff, etc., etc...

CMOS

some money???? lol where's my raise boss I need a fish

[Seige]

If the rock had just arrived, then it probably was not fully cured. On the other hand, if it had been sitting in the store's live rock storage/curing vat for a couple of weeks, then it was probably fully cured or close to it when you got it.

This would be fine as long as the rock had been in their tanks for a couple of weeks or more. It would have been a mistake to add uncured, or semi-cured, live rock to a tank that already housed fish and invertebrates. If your tank was a new set-up with no livestock, then it's perfectly fine to cure the live rock in the tank. It's best to wait two or three weeks -- or even four or five weeks -- after the live rock has cycled before adding any livestock. No need to rush things.

The LR we bought was likely cured as they have a fair bit of it and it doesn't seem to sell too fast. Tank is new, just plain sand and LR.

Good! Most worms are beneficial scavengers. It's certainly possible to get some bad guys every once in a while but most of them are good guys and there is no need to remove the good guys.

They advised us to trap the worms because they supposedly aren't the good type. No sign of anything alive though so far. No trails and no movement when we move LR around trying different setups.

Only if you have some obvious die-off on the surface of the live rock that needs to be removed -- dead or dying sponges, etc. And it would have been better to scrub stuff like that off before putting the live rock in your tank, not after.

We do have black and white areas of die-off on the surface. LFS advised to leave it on to start the ammonia build up then remove it later. It's been in the tank for 10 days now.

When should I add Live Sand?

Regular tapwater can be risky for several reasons. It's fine if your tapwater is really, really good. Unfortunately, tapwater is not really, really good in most areas. Tapwater that meets standards for human consumption may be totally unsuitable for delicate invertebrates.

Should I dump the current tap water since the cycling hasn't started and replace it with RO/DI or just leave it and just slowly convert it with my weekly water change?
How soon do I add a clean up crew? I was figuring 1-2 months. How big a clean up crew do I need for the 55g with 20g refuge/sump? Do invertebrates count towards the fish / gallon limit?

I hope you make a speedy recovery.

Thanks. Return to work tomorrow. Not sure if I'll make it through a full day.

... R.O./D.I. is better for a reef aquarium but R.O. water is okay for most applications.

Later on, you might want to consider buying an R.O./D.I. filter system.

I will get one this week. Any recomendations.?

Thanks for the advice.

[Ninong]

The LR we bought was likely cured as they have a fair bit of it and it doesn't seem to sell too fast. Tank is new, just plain sand and LR.

Maybe it was cured but if it was really fully cured, then there shouldn't have been anything dead left on the surface for you to "scrub off." And their advice that you should yank the live rock out of the tank a few times after initially placing it in the tank so that you could "scrub the surface" makes no sense at all. If there was anything dead or dying on the surface of the live rock, it should have been cleaned off before placing the live rock in your tank. Once in your tank, you should leave the live rock alone. If detritus (from dying stuff) builds up around the live rock, just siphon it out or remove it manually; but don't remove all the rock. That's just crazy!

They advised us to trap the worms because they supposedly aren't the good type.

There are more than 8,000 species of polychaetes. Most are the "good type." Ask these LFS guys to please tell you the name of the worms (scientific name, not simply "bristle worms") that they think need to be trapped. If they can give you the full name (genus and species), then I can tell you if you should remove them or not. I have a hunch these guys have no clue what they're talking about.

No sign of anything alive though so far. No trails and no movement when we move LR around trying different setups.

I should caution you that you might want to wear rubber gloves (or latex gloves, whatever) when handling live rock, especially after it has been placed in your tank. Many of the species of beneficial worms that inhabit the live rock can inflict somewhat painful stings should you accidentally come in contact with their setae (bristles). The bristles are venomous -- some moreso than others. However, unless you actually see some of these "bad" worms, we will have no idea what they are. Even after you see them, we probably still won't know what they are unless you are extremely good with a macro lens. The bottom line here is that I wouldn't pay much attention to the advice from this particular LFS. I'm not impressed with their advice. You can tell them that the guys on the reefkeeping bulletin board said that. That always ticks them off.

It's been in the tank for 10 days now.

When should I add Live Sand?

Now.

BTW, what exactly do you mean by "live sand?" If you mean what I think you mean, then save your money and get regular dry aragonite sand. You only need a small amount of real live sand to seed your sand bed. If you will explain what you mean by "live sand," then I can tell you if it's an unnecessary additional expense or if it's really worthwhile.

Should I dump the current tap water since the cycling hasn't started and replace it with RO/DI or just leave it and just slowly convert it with my weekly water change?

I wouldn't bother. What is your current salinity?

How soon do I add a clean up crew?

Now, just don't go overboard because there isn't much in the tank for them to feed on right now.

How big a clean up crew do I need for the 55g with 20g refuge/sump?

There is a Catch 22 here. The problem is that if you order stuff online, you have to buy too much to get a good deal. If you have access to stuff locally, then that's much better. Just add half a dozen trochus snails (good grazers) and maybe half a dozen cerith snails. I would also add about a dozen Nassarius snails (Nassarius vibex). If you can find some "mini-stars" or "micro-stars," get a few of each. If you can find what they call "spaghetti worms," get a couple. They multiply asexually. I also got a dozen baby bristleworms (Eurothoe complanata) but you could hold off on these. Besides, you might actually have a couple -- or more -- that came in as hitchhikers in your live rock. These are probably what your LFS is telling you to trap and remove.

Do NOT add your "clean-up crew" until after you have added your sand. In fact, if you have not added your sand yet, then wait at least a week after adding the sand before adding ANY of the clean-up crew.

Do invertebrates count towards the fish / gallon limit?

Everything that is alive is part of the bioload in your tank. Everything. Corals, fish, snails, worms, clams, everything. There is no such thing as a "fish/gallon" limit. There is no such thing as "inches of fish per gallon." Everything is different and everything counts differently to the bioload of the system. Whatever your LFS tells you about bioload is almost certainly wrong. They're in the business of selling you stuff, not talking you out of buying stuff. Whatever they tell you about the number of fish or the size of the fish that you can keep in your 55-gal tank is almost certainly wrong. Probably very wrong. Whatever they tell you about what "additives" you "need" for your tank is almost certainly wrong. Completely and absolutely wrong. It almost always is. Happy Reefing!

I will get one this week. Any recomendations.?

I bought a 5-stage system for US$149.95 from Air, Water & Ice. They're in Ft. Pierce, Florida. I suggest you first check with Canadian vendors.

[Seige]

Maybe it was cured but if it was really fully cured, then there shouldn't have been anything dead left on the surface for you to "scrub off." And their advice that you should yank the live rock out of the tank a few times after initially placing it in the tank so that you could "scrub the surface" makes no sense at all. If there was anything dead or dying on the surface of the live rock, it should have been cleaned off before placing the live rock in your tank. Once in your tank, you should leave the live rock alone. If detritus (from dying stuff) builds up around the live rock, just siphon it out or remove it manually; but don't remove all the rock. That's just crazy!

Yup. Fair amount of detritus building up under and around the rocks. Need more water movement but they are out of stock on the jet we bought and I'd like to get a matching pair if possible.

There are more than 8,000 species of polychaetes. Most are the "good type." Ask these LFS guys to please tell you the name of the worms (scientific name, not simply "bristle worms") that they think need to be trapped.

Will do tomorrow if I can.

I should caution you that you might want to wear rubber gloves (or latex gloves, whatever) when handling live rock, especially after it has been placed in your tank. Many of the species of beneficial worms that inhabit the live rock can inflict somewhat painful stings should you accidentally come in contact with their setae (bristles). The bristles are venomous -- some moreso than others.

They mentioned I'd know if I'd touched one because it would feel like being cut by fibreglass. As of now all I see is bubbles and rock and some algae, no critters.

I'll get a red light to see if anythings moving after dark.

Actually for the most part the LFS has recommended to not buy things and wait patiently. The main reason I think they mentioned taking the LR out to clean was because it went in without being cleaned. That was my bro's fault though telling me to rush it back into saltwater. Hope he doesn't read this. "ouch"

Off hand I'd say we killed off most of the live stuff. Based on his input we mixed the salt and tap water right in the tank with the rock.

That's what happens when things are bought fast on the spur of the moment for xmas... If I'd only known what he planned on getting me I'd have done this research before hand...

BTW, what exactly do you mean by "live sand?" If you mean what I think you mean, then save your money and get regular dry aragonite sand. You only need a small amount of real live sand to seed your sand bed. If you will explain what you mean by "live sand," then I can tell you if it's an unnecessary additional expense or if it's really worthwhile.

We have about an inch of sand in the tank that came with the kit. No idea what type. I figured I'd add more dry sand until it's about 2 1/2" deep and then seed it with live sand.

What is your current salinity?

As of yesterday.

Salt 1.024.
Ammonia's 0ppm.
Nitrite 0ppm.
Nitrate 0ppm.
calcium 460ppm.
KH 232.7 ppm and dropping.
pH 8.4.
phosphate 0ppm.
Temp going up to 80 based on advice earlier in this thread. was 76

There is a Catch 22 here. The problem is that if you order stuff online, you have to buy too much to get a good deal. If you have access to stuff locally, then that's much better. Just add half a dozen trochus snails (good grazers) and maybe half a dozen cerith snails. I would also add about a dozen Nassarius snails (Nassarius vibex). If you can find some "mini-stars" or "micro-stars," get a few of each. If you can find what they call "spaghetti worms," get a couple. They multiply asexually. I also got a dozen baby bristleworms (Eurothoe complanata) but you could hold off on these. Besides, you might actually have a couple -- or more -- that came in as hitchhikers in your live rock. These are probably what your LFS is telling you to trap and remove.

Sounds good. I'll get the cleaning crew local. Like you said, if I order online I'd have to order a lot to make it worthwhile. If I did that they'd all starve. Don't have much algae yet. Mainly 3 types. Green hair algae, some little short red stocks about 2mm tall that I presume is red algae, and these blade things in rows about the size of a small fingernail. I'll get pics tomorrow. Oh there's also this stuff that looks really really dark blue. At first I thought it was black. Now I'm not so sure. Tried taking some off with my fingernail (ya brushes are on the "to buy" list). It wouldn't come off. Stuck right to the rock face.

What about Nerite snails or Turbo snails? I was thinking about maybe a couple Tonga Fighting Conch, a couple Hermit crabs, maybe an Emerald crab (not sure if it'll eat the snails), and maybe 1 or 2 cleaner shrimp.

Everything that is alive is part of the bioload in your tank. Everything. Corals, fish, snails, worms, clams, everything. There is no such thing as a "fish/gallon" limit.

I just read Lee's article on this site about that. Makes sense.

I know it's WAY to soon to add fish but I've got my list of potentials down to Clownfish, Green Chromis, Flame Angelfish, Neon Blue Goby, Purple Firefish, Peach Anthias, Six Line Wrasse, Mandarinfish, Lawnmower Blenny. Then maybe a Dwarf Seahorse for the refugium. Still cutting down on that list but are their any that you definately wouldn't have in 1 shared display? Thinking of cutting the chromis because they're a schooling fish and would be a heavy bio load on a 55g tank with refugium and sump. Thinking of keeping just 1 or 2 of each, 4" or less, so I can maximize variety.

Thanks again.

[Ninong]

As of now all I see is bubbles and rock and some algae, no critters. I'll get a red light to see if anythings moving after dark.

Good idea!

Off hand I'd say we killed off most of the live stuff. Based on his input we mixed the salt and tap water right in the tank with the rock.

It would have been okay to mix the saltwater in the tank BEFORE adding the live rock. If you placed the live rock into FRESHWATER and then added the salt, then you really, really screwed up. If that's what happened, you may not see much at all with your red flashlight.

As of yesterday.

Salt 1.024.

Raise your specific gravity to at least 1.025.

Ammonia's 0ppm.
Nitrite 0ppm.
Nitrate 0ppm.

I would question the accuracy or sensitivity of your test kits. What brand are you using?

calcium 460ppm.

Okay.

KH 232.7 ppm and dropping.

It's customary to express this as either dKH or meq/l. You have 4.65 meq/l (metric) or 13.0 dKH (German). That's a little on the high side but acceptable. Anything between 8.0-12.0 dKH is fine. Once you start getting above 14.0 dKH you start to run into problems maintaining calcium levels. Most creatures can tolerate up to 17 or 18 dKH but that's not a good idea. If you accidentally get above 25 dKH, especially if you do it rapidly, you will run the risk of crashing your tank. I like a range of 10-12 dKH myself.

pH 8.4.

Fine.

phosphate 0ppm.

Not accurate. Again, your test kit is not sensitive enough. You have phosphate and nitrate in your tank but your test kits aren't measuring it.

Temp going up to 80 based on advice earlier in this thread. was 76

Good idea.

If I did that they'd all starve.

Feed the grazers with sinking algae pellets (they look like tiny discs about 15mm in diameter) sold for freshwater aquariums. Feed Nassarius snails with sinking pellets designed for carnivores.

...some little short red stocks about 2mm tall that I presume is red algae,...

Probably not algae. Sounds like the red foraminiferan Homotrema rubrum.

Tried taking some off with my fingernail (ya brushes are on the "to buy" list). It wouldn't come off. Stuck right to the rock face.

You really don't need any brushes. Just leave stuff alone at this stage. Stop fooling around with whatever is on your live rock. If your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate are all zero, then you have absolutely nothing dead in your tank anyway. Your test kits' measurements are probably inaccurate. Could be bad test kits or test kits that aren't worth the money they charge for them. Believe me, you do not have zero nitrate and phosphate.

What about Nerite snails...

Okay, except that they like to crawl up to the water line and park there all day. They become active after dark.

or Turbo snails?

Acceptable except that the big Mexican turbo snails (Turbo fluctuosus) get so big that they knock stuff over. Most of the turbo snails on the market are temperate species, not tropical. Don't get more than a couple of these guys.

I was thinking about maybe a couple Tonga Fighting Conch...

Your 55-gal tank is not large enough to sustain even one fighting conch much less two.

... a couple Hermit crabs...

A couple of them would be fine but don't get too many. I like the scarlet reef hermits (Paguristes cadenati) -- brilliant scarlet red legs and golden yellow eye stalks. All hermits are little terrorists but a couple of scarlets would be acceptable... to me anyway.

...maybe an Emerald crab (not sure if it'll eat the snails),...

They don't eat snails. Check out my post here before buying any emerald crabs.

... and maybe 1 or 2 cleaner shrimp.

Get two of the same species. My favorite is Lysmata amboinensis. Any two will become a pair. They're hermaphroditic. Stay away from Stenopus hispidus, coral banded shrimp, because they're too aggressive -- and they're not hermaphroditic.

I know it's WAY to soon to add fish but I've got my list of potentials down to Clownfish,...

Stay away from the large species for your size tank. Get two tank-bred juveniles and you will end up with a mated pair. They're protandrous hermaphrodites.

Green Chromis...

Too bland unless you have a large tank and get at least five of them.

Flame Angelfish...

Centropyge loriculus is one of my favorite fish but be forewarned that it is risky in a reef tank. They're hit or miss.

Peach Anthias

Your tank is too small for any anthias.

Six Line Wrasse, Mandarinfish,..

Your tank is really too small for a mandarinfish; besides, the six-line would probably kill it. Six-lines are really aggressive with any other similar feeders. They don't tolerate competition.

Lawnmower Blenny.

Probably risky in a 55-gal tank but they sometimes work out. They can sometimes be difficult to adapt to commercial foods and your tank won't be able to support one naturally.

Then maybe a Dwarf Seahorse for the refugium.

Only if your refugium is suitable for dwarf seahorses -- meaning low flow and suitable food, preferably live.

Thinking of keeping just 1 or 2 of each, 4" or less, so I can maximize variety.

Probably no more than one 4" fish in a 55-gal tank as your "trophy" fish. The other fish should be 3" or less. I would probably try a flame angelfish but that's just because I like them so much. It may or may not work out. I would avoid the six-line wrasse in such a small tank because they are too pushy.

Consider a royal gramma (Gramma loreto) or maybe an orchid dottyback (Pseudochromis fridmani). One or the other but not both. The orchid dottyback is really nice and they usually don't bother anybody like the other dottybacks, all of which are a pain to control.

The firefish are nice but they're jumpers. Virtually all wrasses are jumpers. I love fairy wrasses but my tank was completely jumper-proofed before I got any.

In such a small tank, stick with a pair of small clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris or A. percula). Don't get just one. Get two juvies of the same species. Maybe a flame angelfish if you're feeling adventurous. Either an orchid dottyback or a royal gramma. Add the clowns first and at the same time. Wait a month and then add the royal gramma or orchid dottyback or something similar. Don't add the angelfish for at least six months! Try to find one that is no more than 2" long. These are even being captive-bred in Hawaii now but I haven't seen the captive-bred ones on the market lately.

I don't know if I would risk a lawnmower blenny (Salarias fasciatus) in a 55-gal tank but it might work. You could add it four or five months from now. You should probably add the flame angel last, especially if it is larger than about 6-7cm long. Are you guys metric in Canada now? We're still stuck with the king's archaic 12" foot unit, which is absolutely insane in this day and age. We said we were going metric a couple of decades ago but then they gave up on that idea. Too many really dumb people protested. I think it was against their religion or something. We will be the last country on the planet to go metric... if ever!

[Seige]

It would have been okay to mix the saltwater in the tank BEFORE adding the live rock. If you placed the live rock into FRESHWATER and then added the salt, then you really, really screwed up.

Ya we did. I shoudn't have listened to my brother. 3 of the rocks were in freshwater for about 2 minutes. 2 of them seem to be ok though. 5 of them were bought and added on the day after setup (boxing day).

I would question the accuracy or sensitivity of your test kits. What brand are you using?

API Seawater Test Kit and API Reef Master Test Kit.

oh, the water was filtered through one of those Brita home drinking water things. Maybe that blocked some of the chemicals.

Not accurate. Again, your test kit is not sensitive enough. You have phosphate and nitrate in your tank but your test kits aren't measuring it.

Your right. I saved and compared the last ammonia tests. It appears the ammonia's rising just not enough to register on the charts the kit came with.

Feed the grazers with sinking algae pellets (they look like tiny discs about 15mm in diameter) sold for freshwater aquariums. Feed Nassarius snails with sinking pellets designed for carnivores.

Will do... I'm presuming that means no quarantine for the cleaning crew.

Probably not algae. Sounds like the red foraminiferan Homotrema rubrum.

Only found one pic of that online. Doesn't look at all like it. May just be magnification or growth stage though. I'll get a pic of it when I get home from work.

Red one's are small stalks more like red mushroom's with the tops cut off spread over about 1/2 the LR's.

Greenish one's like blades of grass recently cut by a lawnmower but hardened. The pump doesn't move them. Just 4 of the blades running parallel to each other on a corner of one LR.

Midnight blue/black one that's like the felt on a pool table following the contours of the rock. Spread over about 4 sq. inches of one LR.

You really don't need any brushes. Just leave stuff alone at this stage. Stop fooling around with whatever is on your live rock. If your ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and phosphate are all zero, then you have absolutely nothing dead in your tank anyway.

Possible nothings dead although that means the rocks survived the fresh water perfectly which I'd doubt. Most of the growth appears ok. Oh I think you have the impression I'm constantly in the tank messing with stuff. I'm not. I've moved the rocks once to bunch them together better forming some caves. Once to shake them (LFS recommendation) to see if any worms swam off the rocks. The cleaning was a one time pick at anything that looked obviously dead. 3 of those dead areas came off easily, and the dark blue/black one still remains.

oh... when I set up the LR I always kept the dead side down. Figured it'd been barried in the sand at the LFS so wouldn't have anything much living on it.

Only if your refugium is suitable for dwarf seahorses -- meaning low flow and suitable food, preferably live.

Ya, I picked that up in my research. If I went with a dwarf seahorse it'd be in it's own display refugium with controllable flow. Not the sump/refugium hidden down under the main tank. Would a 10-15g display refugium be ok for 1 dwarf seahorse?

Probably no more than one 4" fish in a 55-gal tank as your "trophy" fish. The other fish should be 3" or less. I would probably try a flame angelfish but that's just because I like them so much. It may or may not work out. I would avoid the six-line wrasse in such a small tank because they are too pushy.

Consider a royal gramma (Gramma loreto) or maybe an orchid dottyback (Pseudochromis fridmani). One or the other but not both. The orchid dottyback is really nice and they usually don't bother anybody like the other dottybacks, all of which are a pain to control.

Thanks for the suggestions. Saved me a lot of research finding compatible fish. It's kinda funny because I had the royal gramma and orchid dottyback on my list as alternates.

What about an Indian Brittle Star (Fromia indica). It grow's to about 3.5". I'm guessing not because I'd need a lot larger seabed and a lot smaller cleaning crew to eliminate competition.

Maybe I'll just buy a bigger tank now. Anyone wanna trade a 500g???

The firefish are nice but they're jumpers. Virtually all wrasses are jumpers. I love fairy wrasses but my tank was completely jumper-proofed before I got any.

What's the best mesh screen to stop jumpers. Don't want it to burn on the lights or have anything that leaches chemicals into the tank.

Are you guys metric in Canada now? We're still stuck with the king's archaic 12" foot unit, which is absolutely insane in this day and age.

Yup. Yes it is especially since we have to use both depending if it's from US or not. Maybe Obama will make that change. We feel he's more Canadian then American anyway. eh!

[Ninong]

API Seawater Test Kit and API Reef Master Test Kit.

I like LaMotte's test kits for calcium and alkalinity. I would probably like their nitrate test kit too if it wasn't so darn expensive. Merck makes a decent phosphate test kit but it's almost a hundred bucks. U.S. bucks, not loonies. BTW, the looney has dropped from US$1.09 all the way down to US$0.83 just since July thanks to the falling price of oil ($147/bbl in July, $35/bbl a week or so ago.) Canada exports oil. We import oil. Countries that are net exporters of oil will see their currency rise in relation to countries that import it when the price of oil rises. At least you guys have cheap prescription drugs. We don't!

I have used Salifert's test kits for most of the other stuff over the years with mixed results. So I'm not all that keen on Salifert right now. The bottom line is that you usually get what you pay for in test kits. The good ones aren't all that cheap.

oh, the water was filtered through one of those Brita home drinking water things. Maybe that blocked some of the chemicals.

Maybe. I think they're probably mostly GAC (granular activated carbon) but I've never really looked into them.

Your right. I saved and compared the last ammonia tests. It appears the ammonia's rising just not enough to register on the charts the kit came with.

Most hobby ammonia tests are a complete joke. Even Salifert's only measures down to 0.50 ppm ammonia. You really don't need an ammonia test kit anyway. If you have both nitrite and nitrate test kits, you can do without an ammonia test kit. You can really get by with just a nitrate test kit once your tank is running. You could really do with just a nitrate test kit from the get-go if you knew that nitrate would rise and then gradually fall during the cycle and waited for that to happen.

Will do... I'm presuming that means no quarantine for the cleaning crew.

Well, you certainly can't quarantine worms or tiny brittle stars, etc. I guess you could quarantine snails but I've never heard of anybody doing that. You have to see what's available up there in Canada. I got a "detritivore kit" from Inland Aquatics that I thought was pretty nice. They included everything shown on this chart, including the three items at the bottom, and the quantities were generous. I added half a dozen "spaghetti" worms but they're kind of pricey. I also had them add half a dozen trochus snails but that was before my LFS started carrying some nice trochus snails.

I also got a lot of stuff from Hawaii and Florida but I really went nuts on the clean-up crew critters. It was for a 120-gal tank. One excellent thing that I did was that I had almost every online vendor that I ever ordered anything from throw in a pound or two (a kilo) of real, honest to goodness live sand from their systems. I think I got live sand samples from five different places, including 12-lbs from one guy in South Carolina. That gave my 6" deep sand bed lots and lots of diversity. Notice that I deliberately added six baby bristle worms (E. complanata). They were part of the detritivore kit from Inland Aquatics. That just gives you and idea of what you should be looking for in Canada.

Only found one pic of that online. Doesn't look at all like it. May just be magnification or growth stage though. I'll get a pic of it when I get home from work.

It was just a wild guess anyway. We really can't tell what you have without very, very good pics. And even then we're not really sure because we're not there looking at your tank. Most of the stuff is okay. Aiptasia and Majano anemones are not okay. Some worms are not okay but fortunately they are few and far between. Nuisance algae is to be expected. Most of it can be dealt with but some versions are a real challenge. Diatoms are usually not a problem and usually die down after a week or two. Cyanobacteria are sometimes a problem but they too can be dealt with without too much effort.

Oh I think you have the impression I'm constantly in the tank messing with stuff. I'm not.

All I meant by that was that you should ignore the advice of your LFS that it would be a good idea to remove all of the live rock two or three times to "scrub the surface." I think I'll add that one to my list of dumb LFS advice. If there's any room left on that list.

oh... when I set up the LR I always kept the dead side down. Figured it'd been barried in the sand at the LFS so wouldn't have anything much living on it.

This is the way to do it. There might have been some critters on the bottom of the live rock that migrate between the rock and the sand bed. Most critters live in one or the other but some wormy critters do move back and forth.

Ya, I picked that up in my research. If I went with a dwarf seahorse it'd be in it's own display refugium with controllable flow. Not the sump/refugium hidden down under the main tank. Would a 10-15g display refugium be ok for 1 dwarf seahorse?

I have absolutely no experience with either dwarf seahorses or tiny nano tanks but it would seem to me that if you're going to keep any of the tiny dwarf seahorses, then your should keep several. And I don't like anything smaller than a 20-gal tank for anything no matter how small it is because all of these really small tanks are so difficult to keep and require constant monitoring. Bad things can happen very fast in a nano tank. Seahorses of any size should be kept in a dedicated tank that is designed around their particular needs. I think it would be cruel to keep just one of those little guys. Why not half a dozen?

Thanks for the suggestions. Saved me a lot of research finding compatible fish. It's kinda funny because I had the royal gramma and orchid dottyback on my list as alternates.

One thing that I like about orchid dottybacks is that they don't jump like fairy wrasses.

What about an Indian Brittle Star (Fromia indica).

I like virtually all of the Fromia spp. sea stars but they are difficult to keep successfully in captivity unless we're talking about a very, very large system. Probably has something to do with availability of the 'right' food.

Here's a pic of my Fromia that was sold to me as F. indica but I think it was probably F. milleporella. Unfortunately it lasted only about two weeks. I had two of them. This pic was taken several years ago when my tank was only two months old.



The problem with any sea stars is that so many of them are harmed in collection and transport before you even buy them. They are very sensitive to osmotic shock. Therefore, they require very slow, slow-drip acclimation -- 6 to 8 hours! If you can find any that you know have been in the dealer's tank for at least six weeks, then go for it. I wouldn't put anything too big in a tank as small as yours, so I would avoid Linckia spp. sea stars except for L. multifora.

It grow's to about 3.5". I'm guessing not because I'd need a lot larger seabed and a lot smaller cleaning crew to eliminate competition.

Fromia spp. sea stars probably feed mainly on algal and bacterial films that are on the surface of live rock. They're not really considered part of any "clean-up crew" as such. Some of the smaller 'safe' species of brittle stars are decent detritivores but you have to be very careful in your selection. Most brittle stars (and most stars in general) are ravenous omnivores that will eat almost anything they can catch. Some are extremely bad choices for as reef tank because they are also corallivores. And there are some that are known to trap and eat small fish. The small Fromia stars are completely safe but difficult to keep. The Linckia spp. stars are fairly easy to keep once you get past the first few weeks but most of them get too large for your size tank.

Maybe I'll just buy a bigger tank now.

Practice on this tank first before upgrading.

What's the best mesh screen to stop jumpers.

Maybe you should just stay away from jumpers for the time being. I used a different method to make my tank jumper-proof but I would probably go a different route next time, if there is a next time. I had to sell my tank when I moved a couple of years ago. At least all of my fish are now in a 300-gal tank because I gave them to a guy with a 300. I'm sure my foxface rabbitfish was pleased with that move. He was getting too antsy in the 120.

Yup. Yes it is especially since we have to use both depending if it's from US or not. Maybe Obama will make that change. We feel he's more Canadian then American anyway. eh!

I think he's a VERY American president. The last guy was a JOKE! I know all of you Canadians are just as happy as I am to see him leave office. He was a complete and total embarrassment to our country. I'll stop here before I turn this into a political thread.

[Seige]

At least you guys have cheap prescription drugs. We don't!

Yup. Free medical helps. Not sure why y'all don't go for it. Ya we get some bad waiting times but that's just a matter of how many doctors are available and how much money you put into the system.

Our tax % isn't that different from yours. Roughly 31% versus 33% depending on income and state. I lived in the US for just over 10 years. Main dif is y'all get mortgage deductions, but you pay double or more in land taxes so you get bitten there anyway.

You could really do with just a nitrate test kit from the get-go if you knew that nitrate would rise and then gradually fall during the cycle and waited for that to happen.

awww and miss all the fun???

I got a "detritivore kit" from Inland Aquatics that I thought was pretty nice. They included everything shown on this chart, including the three items at the bottom, and the quantities were generous.

Looks nice. I sent them a note to see if they can ship outside the US. Probably not but I doubt theirs a lot of options up here. Maybe one of the yocals will get out of their igloo long enough to grab some sand for me.

That gave my 6" deep sand bed lots and lots of diversity.

How deep should my DSB be? Need room for some water.

Do you use PVC to prop up your LR above the DSB?

What about an air curtain? I read it can help filtration but also causes the filter to make more noise.

All I meant by that was that you should ignore the advice of your LFS that it would be a good idea to remove all of the live rock two or three times to "scrub the surface." I think I'll add that one to my list of dumb LFS advice. If there's any room left on that list.

Ya no offense taken. Maybe add "Don't sell seawater aquariums to anyone looking to buy it as a surprise gift" to that list. Unfortunately my bro presumed I'd researched it just because I mentioned I'd like one in the foyer of my new house (when I get it). I just thought it was a neet idea. Saw a huge tank on tv once. Back wall of the foyer. They had to maintain it from the 2nd floor of the house by diving into it. I'm guessing 2-3,000g.

ummm you can stop drooling about that tank now. Your monitors getting wet.

Seriously, I'd be worried about introducing a disease into a tank that size. Anything go's wrong your out a lot of money. I guess you could put everything through a smaller fish only 250-500g tank after quarantine just to be sure before introducing them to the big tank.

I don't like anything smaller than a 20-gal tank for anything no matter how small it is because all of these really small tanks are so difficult to keep and require constant monitoring.

I was thinking the seahorse would share water supply with the main tank. Spread the load as much as possible so water is more stable. Still needs a lot of research though. Optimal water characteristics might not be close enough.

Nice pic. I have a 6' x 4' pond outside. Had it for about 15 years. Just goldfish, tadpoles and snails. My brother has bigger ponds with Koi. He lost them at the end of 2007 summer when he had to move to a new house. They didn't survive that winter after the move.

The problem with any sea stars is that so many of them are harmed in collection and transport before you even buy them. They are very sensitive to osmotic shock. Therefore, they require very slow, slow-drip acclimation -- 6 to 8 hours!

I was thinking of setting up a drip system anyway. Use it for everything, just vary the drip rate.

Maybe you should just stay away from jumpers for the time being. I used a different method to make my tank jumper-proof but I would probably go a different route next time, if there is a next time. I had to sell my tank when I moved a couple of years ago.

You don't have a tank now?

yay works done. I'm off to the fish store.

[Seige]

yay works done. I'm off to the fish store.

Sigh... no luck at the store...

Tried 3 stores. One didn't have saltwater stuff. One had nothing but decorations. The third was the main LFS that sold me the tank. Think they need some competition. The dry aragonite sand was $30 for a 15# bag. Yipes...

Ninong, The only Live Sand they had was in prepackaged sealed plastic bags. It didn't look very "live". Is that how you normally buy Live Sand?Sounded like you were able to get yours directly from active DSB's.

Cabinet hasn't arrived yet. Should be here Thursday. Figure I'll wait until then before adding the cleaning crew. Also gives me time to find more shops in the area.

Took some pics. Not very clear though and the camera battery died. I'll post the ones I have in an hour and get more as soon as I find the charger. doh!

[Ninong]

Looks nice. I sent them a note to see if they can ship outside the US. Probably not...

I can't think of any U.S. company that will ship livestock to another country. Some of them will ship equipment but not livestock.

How deep should my DSB be? Need room for some water.

That's up to you. My tank was 70 cm tall and I felt like doing a 6" DSB. I might feel like doing an 8-10 cm DSB next time. Of course, if the next tank is 36" tall, I might feel like doing another 15 cm DSB. Or maybe not. A lot depends on what I plan to keep and how strong I want the current to be.

Do you use PVC to prop up your LR above the DSB?

I used a support structure that I made using acrylic rods.

What about an air curtain?

What's an "air curtain?" Is that what I see in some fish-only tanks set up by LFS for people who have no clue what a real aquarium is supposed to look like? If you mean a wall of air bubbles at the rear of the tank, then the answer is NO. That would look ridiculous.

I guess you could put everything through a smaller fish only 250-500g tank after quarantine just to be sure before introducing them to the big tank.

The safest way to go is to quarantine everything. Most hobbyists don't but all public aquaria do. All incoming livestock is quarantined for at least six weeks for observation and corrective action as needed.

I was thinking the seahorse would share water supply with the main tank. Spread the load as much as possible so water is more stable. Still needs a lot of research though. Optimal water characteristics might not be close enough.

Water quality requirements would be the same. The main difference would be water flow. You would have to make sure that the water flow through the tank housing the seahorses was appropriate for seahorses.

[Ninong]

Sigh... no luck at the store...

Tried 3 stores. One didn't have saltwater stuff. One had nothing but decorations. The third was the main LFS that sold me the tank. Think they need some competition. The dry aragonite sand was $30 for a 15# bag. Yipes...

You're pretty much forced to buy dry aragonite sand locally where you can pick it up because the shipping charges would kill you if you ordered it online. Down here in Louisiana, I think the price for a 30-lb bag of Carib-Sea dry aragonite (Aragamax sugar-sized sand) was US$29.95 the last time I checked. That would be $35.25 Canadian now that the looney has fallen by 22% vs. the dollar since last July when crude oil was $147/bbl. Oil was only $35/bbl a week or so ago but it's $49/bbl today. Oil is always priced in U.S. dollars.

So $30 Canadian works out to about US$25.50. For a 15-lb bag, that's US$1.70/lb vs. ~US$1.00/lb down here.

Ninong, The only Live Sand they had was in prepackaged sealed plastic bags. It didn't look very "live".

It isn't what we hobbyists refer to as "live sand." It has beneficial bacteria, that's all. The same bacteria that would colonize your dry sand bed within a few days whether you added them or not. It's not harmful at all. It's just not really necessary. If you want to get some of that so-called "live" sand, just get the smallest bag possible and then get the rest as just dry aragonite.

Real live sand is the stuff that comes from somebody else's up-and-running reef tank or from a dealer's sand bed in the bottom of a live rock curing vat. You can also get live sand that comes from the tropics but it's extremely expensive and not all of the infauna will survive collection, handling and transport from Fiji (or whereever) to your house. Some vendors (good ones) might actually add 50 lbs or so of live sand from Fiji to their own sand beds in their store to add diversity. The vendor that I purchased 12 lbs of live sand from claimed to have done that. He set up 300-gal Rubbermaid vats to cure his live rock and he had about a 6" DSB in the bottom of the curing vats. He said that he added 50 lbs of fresh Fiji live sand to each curing vat.

Is that how you normally buy Live Sand?Sounded like you were able to get yours directly from active DSB's.

I used the cheapest possible dry aragonite sand (Southdown -- no longer available). I purchased some Florida Keys live sand from an LFS to add to it. This sand was kept in a large (~300 gal) vat with about 100 lbs of live rock on it. They just scoop out as much as you want to buy at US$1.00/lb. It didn't have much in the way of infauna that you could see but at least it had beneficial bacteria and probably a certain amount of microscopic life that I couldn't see. I didn't try to put any of it under a microscope because I don't have a microscope.

Many of the U.S. online vendors will sell two or three pounds of live sand from their own tanks for a few dollars a pound. Usually you include that in an order for other, more expensive stuff -- like corals or fish or something. I have no clue what's available in Canada. The U.K. guys are always complaining that they have a hard time finding anything over there. You might want to check one of the Canadian boards. There are at least two Canadian reefkeeping boards. I forgot their names. This would be a very bad time of the year to order livestock online in Canada. Too cold.