Will my Banded Coral shrimp munch on my other shrimp?

[CMOS]

Hey Guys,

I have (had?) a Banded COral, a Peppermint and 2 Cleaner Shrimp in my 50 Super High tank. I have not seen my 2 cleaner shrimp for 2 days, which is very unusual as they are active little boogers. I have seen the Banded Coral chasing them a little bit, but nothing that I thought would be serious.

Is it possible that the Banded Coral made a Happy Meal out of my cleaner shrimp? (Peppermint still there and doing fine.)


CMOS

[zhenya]

Is it possible that the Banded Coral made a Happy Meal out of my cleaner shrimp? (Peppermint still there and doing fine.)

Absolutely! Especially if he got them at the time of molting, they are defensless at that time. Although this guy can get them with their exosceletons intact, too. I swore off of these shrimp and will never keep another one. Pair of cleaners and couple of peppermints do for me just fine.

[Parrothead]

Gene,

On this subject, first off I do heartedly agree with you about the Coral Banded Shrimp, the are very opp. feeders, secondly and I am not sure about the exact name of the shrimp, but they are blood red with a touch of white, would they be suitable for a reef, and would they be ok to add to my 55 at this time, specs are in my post that we where discussing the clean up crew this morning.

Tanks,
Robert

[zhenya]

Gene,

On this subject, first off I do heartedly agree with you about the Coral Banded Shrimp, the are very opp. feeders, secondly and I am not sure about the exact name of the shrimp, but they are blood red with a touch of white, would they be suitable for a reef, and would they be ok to add to my 55 at this time, specs are in my post that we where discussing the clean up crew this morning.

Tanks,
Robert

Robert,

The only shrimp that I would endorse without hesitation would the L.amboinensis, or the Atlantic cleaners L.grabhami. Both have distinctive white stripe down the middle of their backs.
Others, like L.wurdemanni (peppermint shrimp)is a touch and go but in my tank they haven't done anything bad.
And yes, I think you can add a couple of cleaners to your 55. Just make sure that you know exact species before you buy them.

[Parrothead]

Gene,

This is the one I had in mind, Lysmata debelius, let me know

[Ninong]

...secondly and I am not sure about the exact name of the shrimp, but they are blood red with a touch of white, would they be suitable for a reef, and would they be ok to add to my 55 at this time, specs are in my post that we where discussing the clean up crew this morning.

Tanks,
Robert

You're talking about Lysmata debelius. Yes, you could add them to a 55-gal tank. They're quite pricey. Often 30-40 bucks each!

I don't think it's a good idea to keep more than one species in a smallish tank (meaning anything less than 75 gallons). It can be done but only if you have sufficient area for each pair to establish their own separate territory. It would be possible to keep two different Lysmata spp. in a 55-gal tank but that's about it as far as I'm concerned. The 4-ft length of the tank would allow each pair to 'own' half the tank.

Stenopus hispidus is always a threat to eat any of the Lysmata shrimp, especially if it can find them in the process of molting. Unless you have at least a 180-gal tank, I think you're better off either avoiding these guys or keeping them alone without other shrimp species. And remember, these are not hermaphroditic like Lysmata, so you have to be very careful in pairing them up that you don't mess up and end up with two males. Two males would fight to the death in most tanks. The males are smaller than the females.

[Parrothead]

Nonong,

It would be one or the other, I've always admired the Lysmata debelius. Both are equally cool, but the red on the debelius is incredible. And yeah, they are a bit pricey. But as Charlie mentioned to me this morning, check out "not a rookie post" I'm not quite sure that now would be the app. time to add, need my clean up crew first. Thanks for the advice.

Tanks
Robert

[CMOS]

Good news. Both of my cleaner shrimp (twin white stripes down the length of their bodies) have appeared for "dinner" tonight. I'm thinking they were molting and were hiding for a while. They're now quite busy cleaning like a couple of Hoovers.


CMOS

[Ninong]

Good news. Both of my cleaner shrimp (twin white stripes down the length of their bodies) have appeared for "dinner" tonight. I'm thinking they were molting and were hiding for a while. They're now quite busy cleaning like a couple of Hoovers.


CMOS

That's good. It they are sexually mature, then it's much more likely that only one of them was molting. Once they have been in the same tank together for any period of time, they will adjust their molting schedules so as to maximize reproductive opportunities. They're simultaneous hermaphrodites and the only time they are physically capable of receiving a sperm packet from the other one is during a brief period of a couple of hours following the shedding of the exoskeleton.

They keep a little calendar hidden in the back of the rock structure that tells them whose turn it is this week to play the role of mommy and whose turn it is to be daddy. Next week they will reverse roles.

You might say that they're only physically capable of playing the female part a couple of hours every other week. And even if you purchased only one specimen, it could still produce fertile eggs for weeks to come because a sperm packet remains viable for several weeks and can be used for more than one cycle. However, they seem to enjoy doing it as often as possible anyway.

When a Lysmata species shrimp is about to molt, it will go into hiding to avoid being attacked by unfriendlies in the tank. On the other hand, any conspecifics in the tank will know ahead of time that this is about to happen and will follow the shrimp that is about to molt so as to be there when opportunity knocks.

Shortly after molting, the two shrimp couple at the midsection and the sperm packet is deposited into the freshly molted shrimp's repository. Within the next few hours the shrimp that just received the sperm packet will begin to extrude eggs and these eggs will be fertilized as they are extruded using stored sperm. Then next week they trade places. Literally.

P.S. -- I forgot to mention that the extruded eggs are carried attached to the pleopods. Eggs waiting to be extruded are carried inside the shrimp just behind the head.

[CMOS]

That's good. It they are sexually mature, then it's much more likely that only one of them was molting. Once they have been in the same tank together for any period of time, they will adjust their molting schedules so as to maximize reproductive opportunities. They're simultaneous hermaphrodites and the only time they are physically capable of receiving a sperm packet from the other one is during a brief period of a couple of hours following the shedding of the exoskeleton.

They keep a little calendar hidden in the back of the rock structure that tells them whose turn it is this week to play the role of mommy and whose turn it is to be daddy. Next week they will reverse roles.

You might say that they're only physically capable of playing the female part a couple of hours every other week. And even if you purchased only one specimen, it could still produce fertile eggs for weeks to come because a sperm packet remains viable for several weeks and can be used for more than one cycle. However, they seem to enjoy doing it as often as possible anyway.

When a Lysmata species shrimp is about to molt, it will go into hiding to avoid being attacked by unfriendlies in the tank. On the other hand, any conspecifics in the tank will know ahead of time that this is about to happen and will follow the shrimp that is about to molt so as to be there when opportunity knocks.

Shortly after molting, the two shrimp couple at the midsection and the sperm packet is deposited into the freshly molted shrimp's repository. Within the next few hours the shrimp that just received the sperm packet will begin to extrude eggs and these eggs will be fertilized as they are extruded using stored sperm. Then next week they trade places. Literally.

P.S. -- I forgot to mention that the extruded eggs are carried attached to the pleopods. Eggs waiting to be extruded are carried inside the shrimp just behind the head.

Wow. Just wow. Thanks Ninong!


CMOS

[Ninong]

That form of sexual hermaphroditism is thought to hold for all species in the genus Lysmata, so it applies to your peppermint shrimp, too. You could pair it up by adding another individual of the same species.

However, as I mentioned previously, this does not hold true for banded coral shrimp (Stenopus hispidus). And, BTW, all of your shrimp are correctly called "cleaner shrimp," including the banded coral shrimp. So in your case, when you simply say "cleaner shrimp," you could be talking about any of the shrimp in your aquarium. This apparently is lost on the majority of hobbyists who do not think of peppermint shrimp and banded coral shrimp as cleaner shrimp.

Stenopus hispidus has separate males and females. The adult females are larger than the adult males. In nature, they pair up for life, or at least for a long time (years). In nature, their terrority is two to three feet in diameter and they almost never leave it. However, they will aggressively defend it.

Sexual reproduction is similar to Lysmata in that the female is only receptive just after molting. The eggs are extruded shortly after copulation and fertilized as they are extruded. They are carried attached to the pleopods for a period of about 16 days and usually hatch after dark. And, like Lysmata eggs, they are initially green.

They molt every three to eight weeks. Water temperature has an effect on molting frequency in that warmer water speeds up metabolism. That applies to their natural environment. I'm not sure exactly what their molting schedule might be in a reef aquarium but it will probably be more frequent in one with water temperature kept at 84 F than in one with temperature kept at 76 F. And, it goes without saying that if you dump excess iodine into a tank with ornamental shrimp, you will induce premature molting because that's how the poor creatures get rid of the excess iodine. It is deposited into their exoskeletons and then they shed the exoskeleton.

Which is why I still to this day cannot understand certain hobby authors who recommend regular dosing of iodine without even measuring for it first. You will come across that advice repeatedly on vendor websites and even in certain books written by certain hobby authors. They will tell you to dose iodine and strontium regularly because they say it's "good" for your tank. Or, worse still, they will even say it's necessary. That's hogwash. It's only necessary if your tank is deficient in those elements. Both are toxic in excess.

One large online vendor tells you that everything they sell requires "calcium, iodine, strontium, and trace elements." That last one is a real mystery because they don't tell you which trace elements they're talking about. I guess they're talking about the crap they sell called "trace elements." And some of the hobby authors who recommend regular dosing of iodine and strontium just happen to sell it themselves.

Getting back to your shrimp... Your peppermint shrimp and your "cleaner shrimp" (which are probably L. amboinensis) are simultaneous hermaphrodites (which just means that they're both sexes at the same time) but your banded coral shrimp is not. Simultaneous hermaphrodites are sometimes called synchronous hermaphrodites.

Many shrimp are protandrous hermaphrodites but this does not apply to any of the ornamental shrimp. At least I can't think of any. That just means that they become sexually mature males first before later going on to become females once they are larger. Tridacna clams are even more complicated. They become sexually mature males first and then later on, as they get larger, they become sexually mature females without giving up their ability to act as sexually mature males. At that point they are really simultaneous hermaphrodites, even capable of self-fertilization. The way they avoid self-fertilization in the wild is they release sperm first and then they wait awhile (20 minutes or so) before releasing eggs. You have to remember that in the wild, the sperm and eggs are quickly dispersed by the water currents, so the chances of self-fertilization are very slim.

[Lucid]

Speaking of the Lysmata shrimps, what are the survival rates of the babies/eggs in the reef aquarium?

[Ninong]

Speaking of the Lysmata shrimps, what are the survival rates of the babies/eggs in the reef aquarium?

Virtually nil. The newly hatched larvae are no larger than one-day-old brine shrimp. They quickly become food for the other animals in the tank. The ones that survive being eaten will go over the overflow. It's possible that a few might survive a few days hidden somewhere in the live rock but I don't know of anybody who claims to have raised any to metamorphosis in a reef aquarium. One problem is that they move toward the light and that makes them easy prey for fish. It also makes it very likely that they will go over the overflow.

Hatching usually takes place right around dusk, so it can take place just before the actinics go off or within half an hour to an hour after all lights are out. It's highly unlikely that any of the larvae will survive in a reef aquarium for the 39 days it takes them to go through the various stages (molts) prior to metamorphosis. Even after metamorphosis, they would still make very tiny bite-sizes snacks for any zooplanktivorous fish in your aquarium.

No one keeps ornamental shrimp in a reef aquarium with the expectation that they will be successful in breeding baby shrimp. They do it with the expectation that once a week their fish and corals will have a nice treat. Two L. amboinensis in an aquarium will adjust their cycles so that every seven days one of them is releasing larvae.

P.S. -- They can be and have been successfully raised by hobbyists but not in reef aquariums. Just as your have to set up specific grow-out tanks for raising clownfish larvae, you have to set up grow-out tanks for raising shrimp larvae. Detailed reports have been posted online over the past several years. If I remember correctly, you remove the parent shrimp from the grow-out tank as soon as possible after the hatching takes place. I don't remember what percentage of larvae can be expected to reach metamorphosis. Try googling "Lysmata amboinensis" + breeding and see what you can find. I haven't tried that. The last time I read any accounts it was a link from a post on RC to a guy in the U.K. who was breeding them.

[CMOS]

Virtually nil. The newly hatched larvae are no larger than one-day-old brine shrimp. They quickly become food for the other animals in the tank. The ones that survive being eaten will go over the overflow. It's possible that a few might survive a few days hidden somewhere in the live rock but I don't know of anybody who claims to have raised any to metamorphosis in a reef aquarium. One problem is that they move toward the light and that makes them easy prey for fish. It also makes it very likely that they will go over the overflow.

Hatching usually takes place right around dusk, so it can take place just before the actinics go off or within half an hour to an hour after all lights are out. It's highly unlikely that any of the larvae will survive in a reef aquarium for the 39 days it takes them to go through the various stages (molts) prior to metamorphosis. Even after metamorphosis, they would still make very tiny bite-sizes snacks for any zooplanktivorous fish in your aquarium.

No one keeps ornamental shrimp in a reef aquarium with the expectation that they will be successful in breeding baby shrimp. They do it with the expectation that once a week their fish and corals will have a nice treat. Two L. amboinensis in an aquarium will adjust their cycles so that every seven days one of them is releasing larvae.

Amazing. Not just the shrimp, but also your knowledge Ninong.


CMOS

[Ninong]

Here ya go, I just did the googling for you: "Lysmata amboinensis" + breeding

One of the links on the first page is actually back to something I posted here on Reefland nearly eight years ago: here. ;;

That Reefland post of mine from 2001 contains a link to a discussion on Breeders Registry between Rob Toonen and Luis Magnasco about breeding Stenopus and Lyamata larvae: here. That was back in 1998 when Rob was still a Ph.D. candidate at UC Davis. He's now Dr. Rob Toonen and has his own lab in Hawaii. On an island of his own in Hawaii. Well, almost his own. It's a research station.

Rob's current website. Check out the links to the various articles he has written over the past dozen or more years. Good stuff. Much of it is still available online.

Rob discusses basic larval culture techniques in this article from May 1996.

[Ninong]

Google results for: "banded coral shrimp" + CMOS

That's from the worldwide web, not just Reefland. It's amazing how fast the stuff we post on this board gets picked up by Google's spiders.