new to saltwater

[padlock 09]

hi, ive kept malawi cichlids for some time now and my cousin has asked me to set up a marine tank for her in her new house, she is going to get a 6' x 2' x 2' tank or something about that size, the tank is going to sit in a wall and it would be preferable if the corals were in the middle of the tank, if keeping corals is even possible for someone with no experience of saltwater, also the only necessary fish is a clownfish for her daughter

[Doodaa]

Wowzers! Huge question there! A lot of reading/research is in order...all depending on the species desired. In general small polyp stony (SPS) corals demand the most care and fish only the least.

Assuming you cared for your Malawi Cichlids in order to replicate their natural habitat of PH, alkalinity and such, you are familiar with testing for such. Saltwater chemistry is similar, but different and shouldn't be hard for you to catch on.

Filtration is quite a bit different between saltwater and freshwater though. Did you utilize a sump with your Cichlids? If so, that is similar, but the preferred method in saltwater is a protein skimmer to help reduce organics before they turn into nitrates.

Lighting is also more specific with corals since most of them are photosynthetic and require certain light spectrums and intensities besides being filter feeders...some need to be directly fed.

[Seige]

That's approx 175 gallons. Nice size for a starter tank. You can keep corals. Stick with the easier ones though. Placement in the center of the tank should give you a lot of nice viewing angles.

Do a lot of research. Equipment, Rock and Livestock will easily run you $3,000. Probably more for that size tank. Pick the type of livestock and corals you like and post them in a thread to confirm compatibility. Then once you know what you like determine the lighting and other equipment you'll need to support them.

I started the wrong way. Received my tank and live rock as a gift so I jumped right in and found out later what mistakes I made. Ninong and others offered a lot of good advice so my tanks doing all right. I suggest you read it or similar start up threads.

New tank not cycling

I also recommend you read up on clownfish and clownfish diseases.

Do you plan on having a sump?

[gregr]

I agree with Seige- that's a great tank size, especially to start out with. Assuming you take the good advice already given and start out with less demanding corals the next big step is to figure out how your're going to set the tank up- the plumbing, filtration and lighting, basically. Regarding the plumbing- there are 8,674 ways to do it Seriously though, I highly recommend adding a sump if you can, and using built-in overflows. If you can't do the built-in overflows Lifereef makes excellent hang-on-the-back overflows (he calls them 'pre-filters/syphon boxes'). A very popular filtration system, that many if not most reefers use is the Berlin system. It's a combination of a deep sand bed, lots of liverock and a good protien skimmer. Kinda like what the ocean uses ;;

[padlock 09]

thanks for the replies, $3000!! does that price include stock and rock? no i dont have a sump on my current tank but i think i will utilise one this time, could it just run using two power heads connecting the sump to the tank just as in an external power filter? how much live rock and sand would i need to have in this tank, what are the best corals for the tank? Are anemone's necessary? also would it bbe possible to have a small 10 gallon tank below the tank that will automatically top-up the tank to cater for evaporation as i will only be able to carry-out water changes once a week

[gregr]

Water changes once a week is excellent- if you do that you're way ahead of the game. For water evaporation a small tank next to the tank is a good idea. You'll need an auto top-off switch to trigger a little pump in the small tank (that pump sends water into the sump). Not a difficult thing to set up and well worth the effort. Ideally you'd have ro/di water plumbed to that small tank-- then you can just have a float switch in the small tank-- when the sump water level gets low from evaporation the auto top-off switch triggers the pump in the small tank and freshwater fills the sump back up. And the lower water level in the small tank triggers the float switch which lets ro/di water fill the small tank back up. Phew... that probably took more effort to type that in will to set up

Here's an example of an auto top-off system. I haven't used this one- I have one of the suction cup switches and I'm thinking of upgrading to the one in the link.

[Seige]

For $3000 including stock and rock. Cheaper if you need to. More expensive if you want to automate more.

If cost is an issue see if you can get decent used equipment.

I figure I was aimed at $2100 for my 55gallon tank and that doesn't count the tank and some LR I received for xmas. That's Canadian dollars so in US dollars it'd be about the same including what I got as gifts...

Off the top of my head the costs are...
55g Tank Kit $200
RO/DI $200
50 pounds LR $400
LS (cost depends on depth you want)
Test Kits $100 (I should spend more on this)
Cabinet $150
T-5 Lighting $150 (You'll need better - deeper tank)
Wavemaker $250
2 Koralia 3 Jets $150 (I may remove one when my sump tank return is active)
Overflow $100 (Is your tank pre-drilled?)

Sump Tank $100
Skimmer $150
Return Pump $100
Top Off, Pipes, Valves, Switches, Timers $100-$200

20g QT Kit $150

Corals $200
2 O.Clownfish $40
CC $100 (snails, crabs, shrimp - you will need a bigger crew)
Sand Critters $100 (mini/micro stars, worms, copopods, etc)

Food $150
Meds $80

um what'd I leave out lol...

You can also get things like Calcium Reactors, automatic feeders, better test equipment...

You could use your top off tank temporarily as a QT and just top off weekly by hand until your QT's done but you'll likely need a Medical tank later on anyways so having a QT that can be brought back into service as a Med tank quickly is a blessing when you see signs of your first disease.

Note you should have duplicates of anything that touches the water for your quarantine. That includes test tubes, nets, etc.

Could it just run using two power heads connecting the sump to the tank just as in an external power filter?

You could run with just 2 or more heads from the sump return but you'd likely have dead spots. It depends on how strong your pump is and if you want a wavemaker.

How much live rock and sand would i need to have in this tank?

LR for a 175g would be around 175-200 pounds. Since you only want it in the center of the tank I'd probably go with less. Make sure your wall can handle the weight of the water and rock. It'll be around 2000 pounds.

Sand depends on the depth of the DSB you want. If it's deeper it acts as a better filter. Probably 2-4"

What are the best corals for the tank?

Depends what you want. Mushroom corals and zoanthids are nice. Don't get filter feeders or stoney's until your tank is 6-8 months old.

Are anemone's necessary?

No.

Would it bbe possible to have a small 10 gallon tank below the tank that will automatically top-up the tank to cater for evaporation?

Yes. Fairly simple. You can manually fill the top off each week if you want to simplify things.

I'm new to this though so if your not sure about something then make sure you get advice from more experienced members.

[Seige]

For the Automatic Top Off. You mentioned placing it below the main tank. To save the cost of buying a pump for the ATO place it above the tank or the sump and let gravity do the work.

[Sarmo]

the best advice i can give is for you to find a tank you like, that has been set up for a couple years. talk to the owner about what they like about their set up and what they would change. make sure the tank is a hobbiest's tank and not a fish store tank. because fish stores have such a turn over of fish and coral, some don't "worry" as much about doing it right for the long run. the exception is the owner operater shop that has large display tanks that fish and corals are not sold directly out of.
if you find a system you like then you can pattern your sister's after it. sounds like she will be starting from scratch so go with a drilled tank with internal overflows. plan on what you would need for SPS and if you start with easier less demanding livestock then you'll be ahead of the game. the one exception is lighting, because it is a heat source and can overheat the tank, go with what you need for the livestock you/she wants.
also you can check out some of the tank build threads here. they can be invaluable. an equipment room behind the tank is such a nice thing to have as it gives you space for sump, fuge, skimmer, RO/DI & storage tank, and all the extra stuff....
don't forget live rock, that is the key. if you can get cured live rock it speads the process up. the whole reason for my limited success is my liverock, i've made so many mistakes while learning but having a lot of good quality cured liverock that has kept me in the game...... i have over 500# in a 500 gallon display with another 200 gallons of fuge and sump. larger volume equals more stability.

sounds like you're doing things right by asking questions and looking for advice. listen to everybody and plan it all out ahead of time if possible. that will save you money in the ling run.

good luck!

[padlock 09]

thanks for the advice, but im a little confused. is the ato necessary as im doing weekly WC's? i like the zoanthids and mushrooms, have they any specific care needs i.e. feeding? are there any more hardy corals and how many corals should i aim to have in the tank? and what final stocking would you recomend for this tank?

[gregr]

Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you aren't aware that you have to add freshwater to replace what evaporates. The salt is left behind so if you don't add fresh water the salinity rises, and fairly quickly depending on how your system is set up. I lose a couple gallons a day on my 150g tank, to give you an idea of what to expect.
To increase the stability of the water chemistry, and to make it easier on the owner (less daily maintenance), ato systems replace the water in small increments so the fish and corals don't even notice. Adding two gallons at a time, or more depending on how often you're home, would be a bit of a shock to the tank.

[Doodaa]

Unless I'm reading this wrong it sounds like you aren't aware that you have to add freshwater to replace what evaporates. The salt is left behind so if you don't add fresh water the salinity rises, and fairly quickly depending on how your system is set up.

I gotta reiterate what Gregr says. Seems like you've got a lot of researching to do...but this forum is here to help. The above postings have given you a LOT of information and good advice.

The soft corals are normally a lot more hardy than SPS corals and even some LPS corals. Mushrooms and Zoanthids are pretty hardy in general, but it depends on the species...again research on what you find and want is in order.

ATO's are not mandatory. Depending on humidity levels in your house, water movement, and the temperature differential between your tank and your house, will determine the rate of evaporation. ATO's are nice as Gregr says to reduce the shock of the change in salinity unless you (or someone) plans to add smaller quantities several times a day, each day or every other day...depending on the rate of replacement. The amount that evaporates per day is how much you should replace...that and how often you want to stop by and check things out will determine how large an ATO tank you need.

Your question about the number of corals is good. I haven't come upon anyone stating a certain number or size of corals per square foot or gallon is optimal. Maybe someone else can answer that, if there is a good answer.

[Seige]

thanks for the advice, but im a little confused. is the ato necessary as im doing weekly WC's? i like the zoanthids and mushrooms, have they any specific care needs i.e. feeding? are there any more hardy corals and how many corals should i aim to have in the tank? and what final stocking would you recomend for this tank?

Depending on your evaporation rate you'll likely lose about 5-10g of water per week and more if you happen to miss a week because your away or sick or whatever. I'd recommend an ATO. It's pretty cheap to set up. Just a water container, float switch and connecting pipe.You don't need to connect it to your RO/DI, that just helps automate refills. Any container is fine as long as it doesn't leach chemicals into the water. I think any container for food is safe. You could probably set it up an ATO for around $20. That's a pure guess though as mine isn't set up. You can optionally use limewater in the ATO if you figure out the evaporation rate so you don't have to worry about Calcium supplements as much. If space is the issue, you should have plenty of room under the tank for an ato and sump.

If cost is an issue you can do something similar for the sump. Just get a big container that won't leach chemicals and place your skimmer in it along with some filter material. You don't have to have all the baffles etc. There's hundreds of ways to do it.

I have 3 mushrooms and a zoanthid in my tank along with a brain and something else, think it's a xenia... I found the mushrooms don't like too much water flow. It can seperate them from the rock surface. They look nice though. The zoanthid hasn't really changed much. Again not as much water flow seems to be better. That doesn't mean none though. They need some flow. Just place them and try to judge how badly the water flow is affecting them. If it is affecting them move them to a more protected spot. Keep them in the light though.

When you buy your live rock look for rock with stuff on it. Sometimes you can get a $40 coral for free on a $8 rock. You don't have to buy all your rock at once. Check out some displays so you can see how to build up the reef. You want decent sized gaps and caves for the fish to hide and flat spots to place some corals and clams up higher that need more light. Also study the rock and how it sits. You'll find ways that they just seem to connect better. I built a tree at one end of my tank simply because my brother put it in and it was like wow that rock looks like the top of a tree. Figure my Mexican Turbo will bulldoze it over at some point but he hasn't yet. I have an open area at that end of my tank. Open areas are useful for catching fish without dismantling the whole reef.

Plenty of corals. Just check out all the stores near you and pick out ones you like. You can add 2 or 3 a week, starting a few weeks after your cycling is complete, as long as your water qualities ok. Clams are nice but not until much later...

stocking... Add some live sand including copopods, mini/micro stars etc. For clean up crew you would need about 60-100 snails, crabs, shrimp, etc. Get a few cleaner shrimp, they are fun to watch. Your tank isn't large enough for a sand sifting star. For fish - a rough guideline is you can have about 1" of fish per 4 or 5 gallons (including your sump water). That's just a rough guide though. It depends on type of fish and temperment. Do you want more smaller fish or fewer larger fish? You should be able to have a nice variety. Possibly a schooling fish although that would limit your options. If you want seahorses you'll need a seperate display refugium for them. Pick out the types of fish before hand. You'll be adding them slowly... About 1 type per 4-6 weeks after each type go's through quarantine unless you have multiple quarantine tanks. You won't want to kill your neice's nemo... You can try adding a clam after about 8 months.

Hope that helps...

[Seige]

Padlock, I noticed your from Ireland. Not sure what your suppliers are like there. Here in Canada my options are limited especially for Live Sand and sand critters.

I did find a US location www.inlandaquatics.com that will ship to Canada (without live guarantee). They may also be willing to ship to Ireland.

oh fyi... I have no affiliation with Inland Aquatics.

If you do order from them you'll want to get a few pounds of Live Sand (this isn't the same stuff you find in sealed plastic bags on store shelves). You just need enough to seed your sand bed.

For critters you'll want to get things like Amphipods, Copepods, Baby Bristleworms (Eurythoe complanata), Micro-stars and Mini-stars, and a couple Spagghetti Worms.

You can also order mysis, gammarus, and plankton starter culture kits.

I plan to order much of the above as soon as temperatures get above 55 degrees. I may have to order earlier though. It looks like my coco worm doesn't like the dead plankton I can get from the store.

[padlock 09]

ok thanks, im going to get an ato with ro water in it and i will top it up when i do water changes. my suppliers are pretty good over here with lr and ls, the hardest thing to find will be the float switch, can anyone post a picture so i can see what im looking for? i would like to have a lot of schooling fish. how far does a refugium have to be from the tank as seahorses would be nice. alos what lights would be best?

so what i need is:
the tank
the sump
the ato
an ro unit
containers to hold/heat salt water from week to week
quarantine tank
lights
1/2 power heads
live rock
small amount of live sand
critters

After cycle:
clean-up crew
fish
corals

[Seige]

Are you paying for this or is your cousin?

ok thanks, im going to get an ato with ro water in it and i will top it up when i do water changes. my suppliers are pretty good over here with lr and ls, the hardest thing to find will be the float switch, can anyone post a picture so i can see what im looking for?

Haven't bought mine yet so I don't have a pic. Float switches should be available at any hardware store. Ask at your LFS they should have a few they can show you in their setup somewhere. They are similar to the float switches in your toilet that shuts off water after you flush.

i would like to have a lot of schooling fish.

Schooling fish would be neat but remember you have a limit of the number of fish. You'll need about 6. It'll take away from your potential diversity.

how far does a refugium have to be from the tank as seahorses would be nice.

A display refugium can be right next to the main tank or even above it. The main things a refugium is for is a slower flow rate and less competition for food. Seahorses are very slow eaters. If they were in the main tank fish would take all their food and they'd starve. Your best option is to have it close enough that it can share water supply with the main tank but have a seperate low g/h pump so the flow is reduced. It's a nice addition and would probably only add $200-400 to your overall setup depending on size and if it's drilled or needs an overflow.

You also gain the benefit of increasing overall water volume so your system is more stable.

I'll try to attach a diagram later.

also what lights would be best?

not sure what you'd need for up to 24" depth. it'll depend on what corals you have. You might be able to get away with T5's depending on what corals/clams you select and where you place them. Clams and SPS corals will need good lighting but you can place them on rock so they aren't as deep. That's what I plan on doing eventually.

You should check the threads in the equipment section.

so what i need is:
the tank
the sump
the ato
an ro unit
containers to hold/heat salt water from week to week
quarantine tank
lights
1/2 power heads
live rock
small amount of live sand
critters

After cycle:
clean-up crew
fish
corals

Get an RO/DI if you can. I've heard the Typhoon 5 is a decent one for lower cost.

You'll want some timers for the lights and other things. Wavemaker controls the pumps if you get one. You don't necessarily need a heater for new water. You can add water slowly to the sump so it pre-mixes prior to going up to the tank. The mixing reduces the effect of the temperature change. Just add water more slowly. If you do get a heater put it on a weekly timer so it saves some power and the environment a bit.

If your main tank and refugium aren't pre-drilled you'll want to get overflows. Make sure they can handle the flow rate.

you'll need a return pump. make sure it get's the g/h rate you want at the height it has to get it to.

if your refugium is lower then the main tank you can split off water from the down pipe to the refugium. if it's above the main tank you'll need a small pump to feed water from the main tank or sump to the refugium. I plan to set up that pump in my main tank and then have the refugium overflow go back to the main tank.

in addition to the live sand you'll need regular reef sand. It's cheaper but you'll likely need at least 50 pounds of it. Depends how deep your SB will be.

you'll need additives and food etc. Some things you can get at your grocery store, just make sure they don't have any additives or spices. You just plain fresh or frozen seafood / seaweed. Try to have a variety of foods. Flakes / Pellets / Frozen Mysis shrimp / etc. The seafood will help keep your meat eaters from chewing up your snails.

If you get hermit crabs, get a lot of extra shells and spread them around the tank. You can usually get shells for free from LFS. They get loads of them from snails that die off in their tanks.

You may want to start your quarantine tank cycling first by a week or so. By the time the QT cycle ends and your fish go through quarantine your main tank should be ready for fish.

You'll need additives and water tests for both saltwater and reefs.

I'll presume you left out piping, valves, switches and electrical on purpose.

ummm that's all I can think of for now and I have to get to my neices birthday.

Have you figured out what fish you'd like other then seahorses and clownfish? You should make a list and have the site review it.

good luck...

[Seige]

oh you should get a Skimmer... that's important...

gotta run... bye...

[padlock 09]

ok thanks i will get all that equipment, i like the look of jawfish, bangaii cardinals, gold striped cardinalfish, royal gramma, clownfish, moorish idols, bicolor cherub/gold angelfish, french angelfish, butterfly fish, damselfish especially the domino damsel and a cleaner wrasse for any parasites. Would 20 x cleaner shrimp, 10 x turbo snails and 10 x hermit crabs be too little/to much/just right for a clean up crew? and should i worry about predation? im pretty sure the tank is going to be a pedrilled one.

[Seige]

If it's predrilled is it corner drilled or center drilled. I would guess 1 or 2 corners. Basically you want to know before you build the wall it'll be displayed in so you can hide the overflow/pipes and make sure the support structure doesn't block your pipes to the sump, etc.

FISH
That's quite a list of fish considering you originally only mentioned clowns. lol It does appear like you'll have some incompatibles on that list but you may be ok since your tanks larger. I don't know enough to advise you specifically, other then to make sure you research each one and figure out your order of addition. Try not to get lured into buying fish you haven't investigated just because they look good when you see them in the store. Did you check out Mandarin's. They can be the prize of your collection.

You want to research...
- what the fish eat (hopefully not your cc or corals or other fish or something like hair algae that you don't have) and make sure they'll have a sufficient supply of that food so they don't die. You probably don't want things that like live food like the jawfish (it may distress your neice)
- check their aggressiveness to same/similar/other species on your list (this will determine your order of addition as well) and how territorial they are like damsels tend to be. You may be ok though since your tanks a reasonable size so ask before you make your final decisions.
- if they are jumpers they can be a problem especially for new tank owners
- hardiness since your neice will get upset if her fish die
- fish size (as an adult) and minimum tank size
- depth of sea bed they need if they are burrowers
- if they need calmer water (like seahorses)
- probably a ton of other things I'm not thinking of...

CC
Off hand that would be way too many cleaner shrimp, too few snails and too many hermits. Hermits will eat your snails so you want to limit the number of hermits.

I'd estimate around 2-4 (1-2 pairs) of cleaner shrimp, 15 turbo snails, 24 cerith snails and about 15 nassarius snails. If you need more you can add them after. If hair algae gets to be a problem you can throw in a Mexican Turbo or 2. They may nock over a few rocks though so make sure your reef is built to handle it. You can go without any hermit crabs but I'd add 1 red and 1 blue purely for looks / diversity. Same go's for Bee snails, they look nice but limit to 1 or 2 because they'll eat your other snails. Scatter a LOT of shells if you have hermits. They often kill snails to get a bigger shell including the killing of smaller snails not realizing the shells too small to move into. Having shells around of various sizes reduces their kill rate.

When you add the shrimp I'd spread them out a bit. Mine made their home on the first rock they landed on and never ever go anywhere close to the other end of the tank. They tend to fight a lot too. If you add 4 at the same spot you could have a huge battle for the closest home they all want.



No idea about predation. I don't think you'd have to worry about it.

Ninong would be able to provide a break down of CC you'd need for your tank and tell you which of those fish aren't compatible. Hopefully he'll check your thread. If he or someone with similar experience doesn't respond create a new thread with your fish and cc choices.

This site might help Saltwater Fish Species, Aquarium Fish Profiles

[Seige]

Here's the design I mentioned I'd attach for you. It's based on the refugium being above the main tank. Theirs a thousand ways to do this so don't get fixated too much on this design.

Note: The return pump in the sump and the refugium pump in the main tank may need to be raised above the sand bed so they don't suck sand.