No-Nitrate

[Bigred0942]

Has anyone used the product No-Nitrate??? I bought it and then found out it was 'Experimental.' I did not know it at the time of purchase. But anyways... Heres my story.... For the last 3 months my nitrates have been creeping higher, 40ppm tested with an AP test and a Sulferit test. Every other day since Thanxgiving I do a 20% water change (12 gallons for a 60 gallon system). There are zero nitrates in my RO/DI water with salt. I am sick of doing as many water changes, and sick of wasting water. I plan on puting 1 gallon of the no-nitrate in my system as according to their directions. I will put as much as I can in my Phosban Reactor, and the rest in my canister filter. How have you guys found this product, and am I using it correctly???

Thank You

[Ninong]

Is this the product you purchased?

[Bigred0942]

yes!

[Ninong]

I'm not familiar with that product. However, all such products are absorbers or adsorbers. They work by soaking up whichever nasty stuff they are designed to absorb. When they reach their saturation point, you replace with fresh media.

Unfortunately they do absolutely nothing to correct the cause of your high nitrate. As long as nitrate is still being added to your system, you will not have corrected your problem and you will be forever using some sort of absorber to remove it.

You already know that the nitrate isn't being introduced in your water because you are using R.O./D.I. water and you have tested it and tested your freshly made up saltwater. So that's not your problem.

Please describe your filtration system. In other words, most reef aquariums are set up with nice live rock, a nice aragonite sand bed and a nice protein skimmer. Those are the basics of what many people call "natural filtration." You could call it the Berlin Method except for the fact that the original Berlin Method did not include a sand bed.

People with setups like I just described do not use canister filters except for housing GAC or GFO or something similar. They do not rely on a canister filter for filtration. It's possible to use a canister filter but these things are known for producing nitrate if they are not cleaned on a very regular basis. Another potential source of nitrate would be a trickle filter with bio-balls. Still another source of nitrate would be a crushed coral substrate. Crushed coral only works if it is a very shallow bed (1/2") and if it is siphoned weekly. It doesn't work as a deep sand bed (meaning anything deeper than about 1/2" in the case of crushed coral) because it traps detritus, producing nitrates. Most people end up with something like a 1"-1-1/2" crushed coral sand bed and all it does is generate nitrates because it isn't deep enough or fine enough to have much denitrifying capability.

So what exactly do you have so that we can try to identify the possible underlying cause of your nitrate?

Thanks!

[Bigred0942]

Thank You!!!
- Although I constantly leave my canister filter on, I use it for GAC or spunges.
- I have a protien skimmer that I clean while I am doing my water changes.
- I have live rock with a 2.5 inch sand bed. I vacuume it evey sunday.
- I have a sump that contains .5 gallons of BIO balls. Used to contain 3 gallons, but reduced it to .5

Do you suggest I turn off the Canister filter??

[Ninong]

What exactly is the composition of your 2.5" sand bed? Is it aragonite sand? If so, approximately what particle size distribution? If you don't know that, do you know the brand and the exact name of the product???

Assuming it's an aragonite sand bed of reasonable particle sizes, then I would suggest increasing the depth to 3" and adding a detritivore kit, such as the ones sold by Inland Aquatics. I would also suggest that you discontinue the siphoning of the sand bed.

The canister filter is fine for GAC or GFO (granular ferric oxide). You could run carbon 24/7 or you could run it just a few days each month. You might want to consider running the carbon for maybe just four or five days and then removing it and running GFO for a week or two. GFO is a phosphate sponge.

I would suggest that this is a good time to remove ALL of the bio-balls. You really don't need them at all.



P.S. -- What size is your tank? What model protein skimmer are you using? What do you have right now in the way of snails?

[Bigred0942]

Thank You!!!
- So I will be removing all bio balls today.
- As a sand bed I use Carib Sea aragonite sand.
- For a protien skimmer I use a seaclone 100
- My tank is 55, with a 5 gallon sumo.
- I have approx. 40 margarita snails, 5 turbo snails, and 5 Astrea snails, 2 brittle stars, and probably 10 crabs.

[Ninong]

- As a sand bed I use Carib Sea aragonite sand.

Some of their aragonite sand is really too large for a good sand bed. It all depends on the approach the aquarist wants to adopt. Their sugar-size sand is nice for a deep sand bed (meaning at least 3" deep).

- For a protien skimmer I use a seaclone 100

That's not a very good skimmer but it might be able to keep up with a 55-gal tank. IMO it's not really good for anything more than about a 30-gal tank.

- I have approx. 40 margarita snails, 5 turbo snails, and 5 Astrea snails, 2 brittle stars, and probably 10 crabs.

You have more than enough snails already but it's a shame you don't have about half a dozen each of Trochus snails, Cerith snails and Nassarius snails instead of those Margaritia snails. Oh, well...

One of those detritivore kits from Inland Aquatics would be a very good idea but $70 is a lot to spend on something like that for a 55-gal tank. If you did decide to do it, have them add a couple of spaghetti worms. And you would have to add something like that a couple of hours after all lights were off. Otherwise, you would be simply adding very expensive fish food.

[Bigred0942]

Ninong, Thank you.
You think I need a stronger Protein Skimmer??? It says its rating is for a 100 gallon system.

[Ninong]

For opinions on Seaclone skimmers, just run a search using the word "Seaclone" on this or any other reefkeeping bulletin board.

For suggestions on how to improve its performance, do a google search using: "Seaclone skimmer" + modification.

Most people are of the opinion that this skimmer is not capable of handling anything larger than a 30-gal aquarium, if that. It does not have a good reputation on the boards. And that's from people who own them!

[BlueHalo]

Has anyone used the product No-Nitrate??? I bought it and then found out it was 'Experimental.' I did not know it at the time of purchase. But anyways... Heres my story.... For the last 3 months my nitrates have been creeping higher, 40ppm tested with an AP test and a Sulferit test. Every other day since Thanxgiving I do a 20% water change (12 gallons for a 60 gallon system). There are zero nitrates in my RO/DI water with salt. I am sick of doing as many water changes, and sick of wasting water. I plan on puting 1 gallon of the no-nitrate in my system as according to their directions. I will put as much as I can in my Phosban Reactor, and the rest in my canister filter. How have you guys found this product, and am I using it correctly???

Thank You

Hi Bigred, youve had some great advise given, I would like to ask a couple of questions. What are you feeding, how much are you feeding, are you washing your food before feeding, how often do you clean that sponge?
Have you taken a sample of water to your LFS for testing?
At the rate of water change your doing I can only believe you have cat gone missing or your test kits are either wrong or not properly used, if possible could you post a full tank picture and maybe one of the equipment, Thanks!

[Bigred0942]

Thank you guys!!!! I know that I am getting excellent advise, that is why I am following all of it!!!!
Ninong, now since I did research on modifying a Seaclone, I noticed that 95% of the people using it do not like it. Can you (or anyone else reading this) suggest a protein skimmer that will fulfill my needs?? Preferably under $150 (or if anyone in the Boston area want to sell me a good used one in decent condition).

BlueHalo, I do not wash my food!?!?! Should I??? I feed my fish 90% frozen food. Brine Shrimp, Mysis, and Krill (mixed in). When I dont feed frozen I used the same but freeze dried. I also tried a seaweed salad, but noone liked it.
I feed my fish twice a day. .145 oz per feeding. I only have a Tang, clown and a goby. All the food is eaten, and very little make it to the bottom.

I dispose of the sponges when the manufacturer suggests. Phos 8-48 hours, Nitrate 3-6 weeks, and carbon 2-4 weeks.

I have not brought water to my LFS for testing because I dont really like the nearest place. Great selection, people are not friendly, change prices on you. When I go there it takes atleast 30 minutes to get fish, I dont know how long it will take to test my water. Ive spend easily 2k there last year. Now I do most shopping online!!!

Because it is Tax season (I do taxes), and I work at a Bar, I will not see my tank with its lights on till sunday. At that time I will take a picture and upload it. (I do water changes at 3am in the dark most of the time, and I hire an old retired guy (my father) to come to my place and feed my fish twice a day during tax season. Sundays are when I do most of the maintenance)

[BlueHalo]

Thank you guys!!!! I know that I am getting excellent advise, that is why I am following all of it!!!!
Ninong, now since I did research on modifying a Seaclone, I noticed that 95% of the people using it do not like it. Can you (or anyone else reading this) suggest a protein skimmer that will fulfill my needs?? Preferably under $150 (or if anyone in the Boston area want to sell me a good used one in decent condition).

BlueHalo, I do not wash my food!?!?! Should I??? I feed my fish 90% frozen food. Brine Shrimp, Mysis, and Krill (mixed in). When I dont feed frozen I used the same but freeze dried. I also tried a seaweed salad, but noone liked it.
I feed my fish twice a day. .145 oz per feeding. I only have a Tang, clown and a goby. All the food is eaten, and very little make it to the bottom.

I dispose of the sponges when the manufacturer suggests. Phos 8-48 hours, Nitrate 3-6 weeks, and carbon 2-4 weeks.

I have not brought water to my LFS for testing because I dont really like the nearest place. Great selection, people are not friendly, change prices on you. When I go there it takes atleast 30 minutes to get fish, I dont know how long it will take to test my water. Ive spend easily 2k there last year. Now I do most shopping online!!!

Because it is Tax season (I do taxes), and I work at a Bar, I will not see my tank with its lights on till sunday. At that time I will take a picture and upload it. (I do water changes at 3am in the dark most of the time, and I hire an old retired guy (my father) to come to my place and feed my fish twice a day during tax season. Sundays are when I do most of the maintenance)

Part of your mystery misery revealed, almost all food is packed with nitrate as a preservative, brine shrimp are basically of no nutritional value, I thaw frozen product in ro/di and rinse well.
Now In my opinion any absorbent material older than 3 to 4 days is producing nitrate, particulate matter is trapped in the media and it rots quickly at warm temps, rinse well sponges every 2 days, shake and rinse carbon every 3 to 4 days (unless certain conditions REQUIRE an additional nitrate source)
Double check with Dad on how much he feeds lol, try cutting back the food to once a day it wont hurt them. Pay attention to your testing, when the levels start to drop cut back the water changes your amount is excessive and I think not a totally healthy thing.
IF you can get a sump hooked up it would be a great place for a sump sock(washed every 3 to 4 days, yeah i know shut up already lol) Best of success to you and keep posting Id like to see the changes.

[Ninong]

It's good advice to rinse frozen foods in R.O./D.I. water. I personally never bothered to do it because my nitrates were usually down around 2-3 ppm after my tank settled in. Once or twice I poured the cup of thawed out frozen food over a paper coffee filter that I had placed in a kitchen strainer but that was a mess because then I had to get the frozen food to release from the paper filter by waving it around in the tank. And I usually added a few drops of Selcon and sometimes finely minced fresh garlic to the soaking frozen food. Then I simply dumped the whole cup (actually about 1/2 cup) with everything into the tank, soaking water and all.

That's really not the best way to do things because you're adding both nitrates and phosphates that were in the frozen product that it would have been better to discard. So if you have a problem with nitrates and/or phosphates, try rinsing all of your frozen foods after thawing them out.

I was spoiled because I had a 6" DSB in my 120-gal tank and no matter how much I overfed the tank, my nitrates never got higher than about 5 ppm and my phosphates were always undetectable with Salifert's PO4 test kit. I never had any problems with nuisance hair algae or cyanobacteria, just some stupid red turf algae for about 10 months or so. And my diatom bloom lasted about 12 days during the initial tank cycle and that was it. The tank was only set up for three years, so I have no way of knowing how long I could have gotten away with that. However, the 6" DSB was in such good shape after three years, that the guys I gave it to for free (three guys) insisted on taking ALL of the sand bed down to the very bottom.

I had suggested that they just save the top 1.5-2" and discard the rest but they kept seeing wormy critters further down, and since there was absolutely no bad smell at all, they insisted on saving all of the sand and sharing it three ways. Two of the guys were just helpers to help the buyer move the live rock and other stuff that he purchased from me. The tank was sold a couple of days later to a different buyer. That guy drove all the way from Austin, Texas. The guy who bought the live rock (which included the sand for free) was from Baton Rouge and he wanted to add it to his newly set up 300-gal tank. I think I was asking a hundred bucks for the sand bed but I threw it in for free because he bought the live rock and all of the equipment except for the tank and sump. I gave him my fish, too. I'm sure the foxface rabbitfish was happy to go from a tiny 120-gal tank to a spaceous 300-gal tank.

[BlueHalo]

Ninong, sometimes i think there should be a terminology for tank types, a smallish tank no sump or fuge is a horse of a different color, your right of coarse a dsb in an established tank will swallow up a lot of nutrition, a minimalist set up seems always prone to bouncing levels. for rincing food I use one of these, its a tea strainer, stainless steel, really cheap

[Ninong]

I couldn't find anything with a mesh that fine, which is why I used the paper coffee filter. Now that I think about it, I probably could have used the gold-colored metal filter that came with the coffee maker that I never use for making coffee. But that would have been too large compared to what you have pictured. We Americans haven't made tea from tea leaves in a tea pot since World War II. We use tea bags. Maybe if I drank tea on a regular basis I would use real tea and get to use my nice china tea pot that I have only used twice in my life.

[Bigred0942]

I have an update guys!!!!!! After a little over a month of my new method I know have nitrate readings of 0 ppm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How nice is that?? I took 95% of the advice given. Here is what I did:

- I stopped doing 20% water changes every other day.
- I totally stopped using my canister filter for anything.
- I removed all bio-balls.
- I changed the filter pad in my sump every other day, and removed all other pre-filters in the system.
- I started using NO-Nitrate in my phos-ban reactor.
- I bought cheato and put it in my sump and put a light on it.
- I started, and since stopped, doing 40% water changes weekly.

I hope my experiance will help someone else. Thanx everyone for all the advice!!!!

[Seige]

Congrats!!! ;-)