[reefmack]

I have small maroon clown who has been with a host anenome for over a month now. I just got 2 new percula clowns (mated pair) and another (much bigger anenome) for them... but they have decided they'd rather take up residence in the maroon clowns anenome!! the second anenome is on the far side of the tank - but the maroon clown doesn't seem to want to move over to it - he just swims circles around the happy new couple in his old home!! how can i get him to notice the new anenome???

[GregD]

Reefmack,

I had the same thing happen to me. I just gave the "evicted" clown time (I think it took like a month) to find the other anemone that was "empty".

I did try to entice the fish over to the anemone at feeding time by placing the food near the anemone.

I would give it some time....

BTW....be careful keeping two anemones in the same tank with multiple clowns. I had a problem with the clowns that hosted in one anemone stealing food that I fed to the other anemone in the same tank when I wasn't looking.
I didn't notice this at first and couldn't figure out why one anemone was continuing to thrive while the other previously healthy one didn't look as good. After a while I realized who the burgalar's were when I returned to the tank after feeding time!



Greg

[reefmack]

GregD - after your clowns settled in - did you have any problems with them showing aggression towards one another as they grew? i'm getting some advice from somewhere else telling me that the maroon clown will soon grow to a size where he will try and kill the percula's... damn!

[Ninong]

Hi reefmack ~

A 75-gal tank may be a bit small for two different species of anemones. I am assuming that they are different species, are they? Please tell us what species you have. In any event, now that you have them, try to keep them as far apart as possible.

I have a couple more questions for you. Are you sure you have a pair of percula clowns (Amphiprion percula)? I have a suspicion that you may have a pair of ocellaris clowns (Amphiprion ocellaris) and that the anemone that they have evicted the maroon clown (Premnas biaculeatus) from is a bubble tip anemone (Entacmaea quadricolor).

E. quadricolor is the only natural host for maroon clownfish, although they will accept a couple of other anemones in captivity. The reason it is important to know whether your clownfish are A. percula or A. ocellaris is because these two different species associate with different anemones.

One other point you should be aware of is that maroon clowns are more aggressive than any other species of clownfish. Once your maroon clown is large enough, she should have no trouble at all reclaiming the anemone from the new inhabitants.

Ninong

[GregD]

In my experience I have had problems with aggressive clowns that were maroon clowns or clarkii's. Both types of clowns tend to more aggressive than the others and can also grow to become quite large.

I am assuming that the two anemones in your tank are both the same type and am guessing they are bubble tips (entacmaea quadricolor).

If this is the case then the maroon clown may host in the other anemone. As Ninong indicated though if it is a different kind of anemone it may very difficult to get the maroon to accept it as a host.

In my experience I have had no problems keeping 2 bubble tip anemones in a 72gallon tank. However the tank could be too small if you have a carpet, sebae or other type of anemone.

HTH,

Greg

[reefmack]

they are both the same type of anenome - bubble tip. I'm not sure about the clowns - they are the typical orange with white stripes... the maroon is very small - about 1/2"! i'm just worried any will kill the other over these disputes or that my small maroon will die of stress!

[Ninong]

reefmack ~

Your "perculas" are almost certainly ocellaris clownfish (A. ocellaris), as true percula clownfish (A. percula) almost never associate with E-quads. There is a possibility that your tiny maroon clown will give up and accept the other anemone. There is a possibility that everybody will live happily ever after--but don't count on it.

Ninong

[reefmack]

This situation is growing worse... I moved the old anenome closer to the new one - and the only clown that followed was the previously evicted maroon. The 2 percula's aren't excited about heading over to that part of the tank (as far as i can tell they've never been there) so they let it go. I moved the anenome (and subsequently the marron clown next to the other anenome (the new one) in hopes that the clown would switch - or the percula's would find the new anenome when they came lookng for the old one to jack again... but now the newest bubble tip has shriveled up really small - could this be realted (they aren't THAT close - about 6 inches with rock in between)...

HELP!!!!

forever in search of harmony -

[Ninong]

I will repeat my suggestion from an earlier post: try to keep the two anemones as far apart as possible. That way the two different species of clownfish will not feel that their territory is being invaded. Chances are that the Maroon clown will eventually accept any available E-quad in the tank. There is even the possibility that since the Maroon is so small right now that if it grows up with the Ocellaris clowns in the same tank, it may tolerate them later on when it is mature, provided they do not go near the Maroon's home anemone. But there is also the distinct possibility that once the Maroon is mature, the Ocellaris clowns will have a big problem on their hands.

Ninong

[reefmack]

so i should move the anenome back to the other side of the tank and let the percula's (who are now oblivious) take it over again? how can i tell if my new anenome is dying? it looked great all day but now it's really dormant looking - coloring is still good but it's very, very small and retracted...

AND - if the anenome does die - will i be able to remove it? or will it harm my tank in some way as it dies? I heard a rumor today that when anenomies die they can kill everything in your tank!!

[reefmack]

lastly - assuming i do move the anenome back to the other side - and the percula's take over and evict the maroon again - do i have any risk that he will die somehow? i love that little dude

[Ninong]

reefmack ~

I doubt that your anemone is dying just because it closed up. Secondly, the reason I said try to keep them as far apart as possible is because E-quads will move around the tank on their own seeking the spot that they like best.

I'm afraid I can't help you on exactly where to place either anemone or which spots your clownfish consider home. It would be so much easier if you were only dealing with one anemone and one species of clownfish in a 75-gal tank. But I have seen posts from some with more than one anemone and more than one species of clownfish in a relatively small tank, so I guess anything is possible. You might want to give some serious consideration to the idea that you would be better off long term keeping only one anemone and only one pair of clownfish.

If you suffer an anemone melt-down, you should remove it promptly. People who have the most complications are those who did not notice the situation until several hours later.

Ninong

[reefmack]

ok - so when an anenome dies it can be moved? when they're alive they're IMPOSSIBLE! Another wierd development i forgot to mention in my last post - now that i've moved the anenome to the other end of the tank (with the maroon clown) the 2 percula's have been hanging out down in my goniapora (sp?) as if it were an aneneome! they've been there all day and night except during feeding time!!! ever seen that one?

[Ninong]

reefmack ~

Here is a good article about anemones by Dr. Rob Toonen: http://www.reefs.org/library/article/r_toonen8.html

Goniopora is one of the most difficult species to keep; most people who try will not succeed. Yes, clownfish will very often prefer Goniopora even when there is a suitable anemone available. The clownfish will hasten the demise of the Goniopora.

These are things that you should have known before trying either of these animals. However, now that you are in this situation, you should read some of the literature to get a handle on exactly where you stand. Be sure that you do not have any exposed powerhead intakes or your anemones could commit suicide with them.

Ninong

[reefmack]

i've had my goniopora for 6 months now and it's doing great - how exactly will the clown fish effect it's health?

ps i read that article by the way - very informative... i'd consider removing at least one of these aneneomes if i could - but from what i can tell - they can't be removed. how does one go about removing an anenome??

[Ninong]

A resident clownfish will annoy a Goniopora to death by causing the coral to keep its tentacles retracted until the symbiotic algae within the coral's tissues perish from lack of light. Clownfishes will often accept any available Goniopora over any available anemone, even when the "right" anemone is present. Choose either the clownfish or the Goniopora--but not both--in the same tank. (This coral, although readily available, has a history of doing poorly in most aquariums, and is best avoided even if there are no clownfishes present.) -- Clownfishes by Joyce Wilkerson, page 46.

More than 90% of Goniopora will perish in home aquariums. Very often they do just fine for the first 9 to 12 months and then suddenly go downhill fast. They probably starve to death.

Ninong

[reefmack]

i've yet to see the "moving anenome" phenomenon so that's part of my ignorance i guess. I've had one of these bubble tips for about 5 months and he's never moved an inch (literally). The second's been in here about a week and he's never moved. My experiment to move the two near each other in hopes that the clowns will discover the second anenome appears to have failed so far - the percula's have yet to venture to that side of the tank - even during the night... now i'm thinking about moving the older anenome back to the other side (which will inevitably cause the percula's to reclaim it)... can i assume that, given enough time - the maroon will eventually figure it out? i have a room divider tank - so i'm able to put one in the SE corner and one in the NW - that are not only on seperate sides but also divided by a wall of LR (in the middle)... I'm going to keep a close eye on everything for a miracle before i remove anybody...

BUT WOULD STILL LIKE SOME MORE ADVICE!!! It really has been helpful... Keep the good stuff coming guys (and gals)

[GregD]

Reefmack,

It seems you had an interesting weekend from the posts...

As a successful keeper of anemones for several years I would offer the following guidance:

1) Having two anemones in the same tank is difficult to say the least, and takes a lot of care even for the most experienced anemone keeper. Ninong has indicated one side affect territorial concerns, and this only touches the tip of the problems you can begin to have such as anemones damaging each other, the food stealing behavior of the clowns, the size that various anemones can grow to, their movement around the tank...etc.

2) In addition I would also counsel that having a maroon clown in the same tank with either True Percs or False Percs is risky business too. The maroon clown will grow to be VERY large and very aggressive. (example 4-5 inches and can take a chunk out of you finger if not careful) The percs, both True and False will only reach a max size of 2-3 inches in captivity and may eventually be a "snack" for the maroon.


Here is what I would suggest to make this easier as you learn the tempraments of both the fish and your anemones:
- Separate the maroon from the other clowns into a different tank
- Separate the two anemones...I would not keep these in the same tank initially until you make sure that the first anemone is thriving and has done well for at least 9-12 months.

By doing this you eliminate a LOT of risk and can even encourage your maroon to take a home in the "empty" anemone. Then if everyone is fairing well, you may wish to reintroduce the anemones and clownfish into the same tank. If left in the same tank you are risking the loss of both anemones and you may see more aggression over time from the maroon as it looks to return to its original anemone.

I know your temptation to keepboth anemones in your nicest tank...but it may help to initially start them off in separate tanks.

Thanks,
Greg

[reefmack]

just how can two anenomes harm each other? i've had mine (at least one of them) for some time now and neither have moved an inch. Both are very small (about 3" in diameter). And how fast do maroon clowns grow? my maroon has white stripes and i've had him for a couple of months now and he surely hasn't grown. he's about 1/2".

do i have to worry about the bigger percs killing my maroon while he's so small?

PS i'm starting a new tank in very soon - and i'll most certainly move him then - but i need to figure out some stuff to do in the meantime!

[RudeBoy]

The article that Ninong posted was a great article, but, I'd have to disagree with the writer discouraging people from owning Anemones. Like anything in life, you succeed with 'experience' but mainly with 'knowledge'. I think that these researchers should be telling us to learn first and then make an attempt. I think when you tell people NOT to do something right off the bat, it intrigues them more and basically challenges them to do exactly what they're being instructed not to do. Althought this article (http://www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/a.../1/default.asp) doesn't go full force into Anemones, it does give reefers more hope on why they should be able to keep delicate corals things of that nature. I'm not knocking Ninong in any way, I just think the researchers tend to do us a lot more harm sometimes with the way they word things.