High Alkalinity

[CutthroatKid]

I've been trying to get my Alkalinity down now for a while with very little success. I think it may be a problem with my IO salt, but have tried two different buckets. I'm doing water changes with RO water.
Any Ideas on the problem? Or maybe a way to dilute the alkalinity before adding to the tank?
I know "high" is not a good measurement, but it is off my chart. I'm using an API kit that measures 12 drops and It usually takes 15-16 drops to get a reading. I've had my water check with a salifert kit as well with similar readings...
I could try a different salt, but I have two nearly full buckets of IO and would like to try to work them out first since I'm a college student with a limited budget...
Thanks in advance.

[returnofsid]

Before trying a different bucket, I'd try a different test kit. I'd recommend Salifert or Elos. Not sure how accurate API is, but IO salt isn't known for having extremely high Alk.

[CutthroatKid]

I have had it checked with salifert as well.

[returnofsid]

What Alk numbers are you getting?

[kevinpo]

Hello,
Make up some salt water and test it before putting it in the tank. It may be that the salt has too much buffer in it. If so you should be able to return it for a replacement. They have lot numbers on them so be sure to get one with a different number. I've had to send some back in the past with alkalinity in the 12.8dKH -13.2dKH range. Typical alkalinity numbers for Instant Ocean are 7.0dKH.

HTH,
Kevin

[charlie]

Kevin, he tried returning the bucket to where it was purchased, and the store owner basically told him he was either crazy and messed up. The store owner would not take the bucket back. I am the one that tested with the salifert kit, twice in fact, and the reading was up in the 12-14 DKH. I have read a few threads on RF about this, it seems that James is not the only one with this problem.

[Ninong]

...but IO salt isn't known for having extremely high Alk.

Except for that time back in 2003 when they shipped an unknown number of buckets of Instant Ocean to several different parts of the U.S. and Canada that tested at 95 dKH alkalinity! That wiped out several reef tanks before the victims were able to figure out what was going on.

I think 95 dKH does qualify as "extremely high Alk."



P.S. -- The alkalinity was so high that that it couldn't be tested with hobby test kits. Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley tested it using his laboratory facilities.

[Ninong]

Kevin, he tried returning the bucket to where it was purchased, and the store owner basically told him he was either crazy and messed up. The store owner would not take the bucket back. I am the one that tested with the salifert kit, twice in fact, and the reading was up in the 12-14 DKH. I have read a few threads on RF about this, it seems that James is not the only one with this problem.

Some store owners are like that. However, alkalinity of 12-14 dKH is NOT a problem. Not at all. I wouldn't be concerned unless the alkalinity in the aquarium itself started going above 14 dKH, actually above 18 dKH but I don't want you guys to get alarmed and start shooting that down. I used a salt mix that routinely tested at 14 dKH straight out of the bucket. It wasn't I.O.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with 12 dKH alk. I have run 12 dKH myself without any problems whatsoever, including NEVER having nuisance hair algae. Some people I know shoot for 14 dKH. Randy Holmes-Farley says alkalinity as high as 18 dKH will not cause problems except for the fact that once your alkalinity starts getting much above 12-14 dKH, your calcium may start to be depressed.

So if the Instant Ocean salt mix is testing at 12-14 dKH straight out of the bucket, then it's a little on the high side but not something that will cause any problems. The only real question that comes up next is what is the alkalinity in the tank itself? Is it 14 dKH or above or is it below 14 dKH?

If you don't like the idea that your Instant Ocean is testing at 12-14 dKH and the store owner won't do anything about it, shoot an email (or use their 800 phone number) to the manufacturer and complain directly to them. Chances are they already know about this "issue." Probably a messed up batch. It has certainly happened before.



P.S. -- You might want to consider testing this bucket of I.O. for other parameters just to be on the safe side know what's in there. Besides alkalinity, you should test for calcium and magnesium.

[Ninong]

Charlie,

Are you testing the water in his reef tank or the freshly made up I.O. saltwater?

If the water in his reef tank is testing below 14 dKH, then I don't think he has a problem at all. If it starts to get much above 14 dKH and he's uncomfortable with that, then that's a different issue.

Does anybody know what the freshly made up batch of I.O. is testing at for alkalinity? Was that posted on that other board?

If it's testing high, then it just another messed up batch. It's not a real problem like they had back in 2003 unless it really, really high. When it's 95 dKH, then that's high. If it's 14 dKH, then I don't think there is anything to worry about because it's not likely that the reef tank will test that high. It will almost certainly test lower than the freshly made up saltwater, especially if you test it a few days after a water change.

[charlie]

Calcium tested to 420 or so and the Mg was right in line with that, about 1260.

[Ninong]

Calcium tested to 420 or so and the Mg was right in line with that, about 1260.

Okay, that's a decent number for Instant Ocean.

So you're testing the freshly made up saltwater and that's what tested as high as 14 dKH?

[charlie]

Right out of the bucket there Ninong, his reef was at about 14dkh. I believe he had been dosing a useless 2 part buffer before he even tested, so we kind of quit the buffer.

Here is a quote of a quote from the other board:

Kurt, it is offcial

Ok, here is the official response, and you can quote" an official source" with this.

Reef Crystals formula was modified slightly a couple of months ago when we launched the new packaging. (FWIW, Kevin Kohen took the photo we use on the new RC package!). The salt should now contain, at 35ppt, Calcium 455, Mag1345. 13dkh. There is a +/- 5% tolerance in the manufacturing process, so you may see 430-480 on Calcium etc.

The IO formula has not been changed, however, we have implemented some additional quality control checks in our processes which should result in a more consistant product. IO at 35ppt should be 400 Calcium, 1350 Mag, 13dkh, again at +/- 5%.
__________________
Boomer

[Ninong]

Charlie,

I just noticed that you didn't join until 2004. We have had several threads over the years about certain issues with I.O. from time to time. High alkalinity wasn't the only one. It's still the most popular (as measured by sales) salt mix on the market but they have had bad batches from time to time over the past ten years or so and they can be very testy when confronted with this in public on the boards.

They will usually take care of the customers but only after absolute proof that their salt mix was the problem. If their salt mix is really 'off,' you will have to send them a sample from the 'off' bucket for them to test in their own lab. They will then authorize a new replacement bucket, assuming they think there is a real issue, and even work out compensation if they think their salt mix was really, really horrible (see the 95 dKH thread) and possible of wiping out a tank.

[charlie]

I have noticed that they don't like being confronted, and going thru the hassle of contacting them probably isn't gonna happen. It just really kind of irked me that this particular store owner looked at James like he was crazy. This is also the same store that says lace rock is great for reef tanks, so I guess you kind of take this action with a grain of salt. I could go on about this place....................................

[Ninong]

Right out of the bucket there Ninong, his reef was at about 14dkh. I believe he had been dosing a useless 2 part buffer before he even tested, so we kind of quit the buffer.

Here is a quote of a quote from the other board:

Okay, it's definitely a good think he quit adding a buffer or anything else without testing first to see if he needed it and, if so, how much.

Those new numbers for Reef Crystals and Instant Ocean at 35 ppt look VERY good to me compared to their old numbers being based on some stupid 1.023 SG measurement, or something like that. For some reason or other, those people have been claiming for the past 20 years or more that 1.023 SG (or maybe even 1.022 SG) was ideal. That was BS. They have finally caved in and accepted the FACT that 35 ppt (1.026 SG) salinity is the average salinity of the water surrounding tropical reefs. That's definitely a move in the right direction, finally.



P.S. -- Maybe this is a good time to point out that Instant Ocean has ALWAYS claimed that their Instant Ocean salt mix was NOT intended for use in reef aquariums, only marine aquariums (meaning fish-only tanks). Their Reef Crystals product is intended for use in reef aquariums. It has ALWAYS been that way for as long as I can remember.

Yes, many hobbyists do use Instant Ocean in reef tanks but the manufacturer has NEVER said that it is really intended for use in reef tanks. On the contrary, they have always said that Reef Crystals is intended for use in reef tanks. Which brings up another issue: EDTA. They no longer add EDTA to Instant Ocean (I believe they stopped at least 15 years ago) but they still add an unnamed chelater (probably EDTA) to Reef Crystals, or they did the last time I looked into this about five years ago.

[charlie]

I have never had a problem with either salt. I have been using Reef Crystals since I restarted this reef 1.5 years ago. If you look at my log, I run my alk rather low compared to what you used to run yours, so I have a little bit of wiggle room.

[Ninong]

I have noticed that they don't like being confronted, and going thru the hassle of contacting them probably isn't gonna happen. It just really kind of irked me that this particular store owner looked at James like he was crazy. This is also the same store that says lace rock is great for reef tanks, so I guess you kind of take this action with a grain of salt. I could go on about this place....................................

Charlie,

Not every owner is like Kevin. Many, many store owners are no-nothing jerks.

I'm sort of retired from the hobby right now but what I had to do down here was accept the fact that I actually did want to maintain cordial relations with two of the LFS owners in spite of the fact that I didn't agree with everything they said or did.

It is definitely possible to get satisfaction from any of the salt manufacturers provided you know how to go about it. Dealing with the LFS on issues like this is a waste of time.

[charlie]

Well, I can't speak to what James is gonna do, but if the current reading on the bucket of IO is agreeing with what they say it is supposed to be, then there is really nothing that can be said.

I am really glad that there are 2 new stores in our area, aside from Petco, that are actually kind of nice. I really think that the existing store is going to be hurt by the competition, these new places are run by folks that know what a reef tank is.

Ninong, I tried to deal with the existing store, I really did, but things went TU when he told me a UGF was a good thing for a reef.

[Ninong]

I have never had a problem with either salt. I have been using Reef Crystals since I restarted this reef 1.5 years ago. If you look at my log, I run my alk rather low compared to what you used to run yours, so I have a little bit of wiggle room.

I usually ran ~475 ppm Ca and 10-12 dKH alk. Running those numbers I never had to worry about pH issues. I also think it may have helped in other ways as well. Someone I know runs his 718-gal reef tank with higher alk than that.

Obviously those numbers are higher than natural numbers (~412 ppm Ca & 7 dKH alk) but I think it's better to run calcium a little higher than natural and alkalinity quite a bit higher than natural. A lot of this depends on bringing your saltwater batches up to the correct salinity (35 ppt or 1.026 SG) first. If your saltwater is not strong enough, then your numbers are going to be low going in.

At least the Instant Ocean people are finally basing their measurements on 35 ppt salinity. That's definitely a move in the right direction.

P.S. -- Just to be clear, you don't have to run numbers like that if you don't feel like it. As long as you run 400-425 ppm Ca and 8-9 dKH alkalinity, you're in good shape. I just think you would be in better shape running 425-475 ppm Ca and at least 9-10 dKH alk.

[Ninong]

Ninong, I tried to deal with the existing store, I really did, but things went TU when he told me a UGF was a good thing for a reef.