aquarium club third marines collecting trip for show

[pkc]

This was the third trip.
Didn't even bother doing some spearing while free diving on this trip,the crays that were seen were left for Dave to get.

As you can see by the first pic the queenlsand coast is quite ugly,not likely,but some really nice birds on the beaches to check out-lol!!

One of the constantly prettiest localy caught damsels,the fiji or (chrisiptera taupou)no matter how old they are in your tank,shame they are so very mean normally,this one isn't,its a little weird.

Just thought it would be nice to get a couple of cleaner shrimp (lysmata amboinensis) for the tank at the show,no one even noticed the big female in the tank??why bother!There is this one ledge in 35 to 40 feet deep and behind the bubble anemones and sea urchins there is nearly always four or more there,why i have no idea?I don't like to keep them as all in the tank want to eat them normally.

Just one of the many sea stars(blue linkia) we got for the show to have in a tank with some of the stars of the nemo movie we caught.Danny has had one from tiny for two years now and it is 11 inches across now.

A couple of these roughies or (trachichthys australis) were caught for mark as he lost his ones he bought off one of the commercial collectors to desease,we used them in the show and heaps of people liked the ugly liitle beggers.
They are indemic to our waters here,normally in very deep water to a 1000 feet down and we see heaps of them at one shallow spot that you can snorkel to and as per usual it remains a secret,but normally we wouldn't catch any as they are bit on the ugly side of things to bother with,easy to catch though,you just grab them by hand.
Just like a pinneapple fish,no need for a net,oh they grunt very loud just like a pinneapple fish as well.
They go into marks tank after the show.He likes them????
I have kept them before,they can be a bit fussy to start with eating,no big deal.

Thats it for the trips being copied from our site from me (being the last one to do it) due to personal problems and serious family issues with our oldest daughter towards the end of the year and they have to be focused on,if things go well,i will grab a few of the many trips that were enjoyed in that time,around xmas,there are heaps of trips and if i am around to do it next year i will put them out there for all to enjoy seeing what comes out of the wonderful Q south east on the clubs trips,if not ,i hope some of you enjoyed what we should have had on the net ten years ago at least!!!.

[Ninong]

Nice pics!

Just thought it would be nice to get a couple of cleaner shrimp (lysmata amboinensis) for the tank at the show,no one even noticed the big female in the tank??

Just for the record, there are no males or females in the Lysmata genus; they're all simultaneous hermaphrodites.

[pkc]

The ocean is full of interesting parenting and birth behaviours.
It still, I assume takes two to acquire an out come, especially after storage has run out.
You should put in there in better wording than mine of course, that predators and potential partners are alerted to the shed event by hormones realest by the shedding invert.
And the female, or in this case the other shrimp, will rarely defend its partner if attacked when carrying eggs if they are in a shed time frame.
Hence the reason we find so many females, in other invert varieties of course with no male and just days before the male was her protector, its hard being a male!!
That does explain as to why there are so many in groups sometimes out there.

[pkc]

What you said about these and similar shrimp seems strange,i just went and had a look at them and one has the overies colouration in its back and the other does not.

this is what the banded shrimp has as well that sepparates the male from the female,i thought so anyway?

Does that mean the stenopus is the same in relation to this type of thing.

where is this info from can you give me a link to a reliable site,i am not saying your information is not correct,i just need to see it in a couple of areas.

If not we have a few biologists connected with us,one an invert specialist,well she studied them more so and that has never been asked of them,because i don't think any of us have herd that before.

what is the female green colour in its back for than,is it just a short term thing with them unlike the stenopus?

[Ninong]

The ocean is full of interesting parenting and birth behaviours.
It still, I assume takes two to acquire an out come, especially after storage has run out.

Yes.

You should put in there in better wording than mine of course, that predators and potential partners are alerted to the shed event by hormones realest by the shedding invert.
And the female, or in this case the other shrimp, will rarely defend its partner if attacked when carrying eggs if they are in a shed time frame.
Hence the reason we find so many females...

What you're finding are "males." Actually they're not males, they're just hermaphrodites in the "male condition." If they're carrying eggs, that means they're in the "male condition," capable of impregnating a newly molted L. amboinensis that will be in the "female condition" for just a couple of hours.

They're only in the "female condition" for a couple of hours every other week, just after molting. The shrimp that performs the male role by depositing a sperm packet into the freshly-molted shrimp is itself carrying eggs at the time.

The reason you find so many carrying eggs, the ones you identify as females, is because that's what they do. They mate every other week just after molting and then immediately extrude eggs right after they are finished getting it on. The eggs are extruded right after the sex act.

[Ninong]

What you said about these and similar shrimp seems strange,i just went and had a look at them and one has the overies colouration in its back and the other does not.

this is what the banded shrimp has as well that sepparates the male from the female,i thought so anyway?

No, no. I was only talking about shrimp in the genus Lysmata, NOT shrimp in the genus Stenopus.

Stenopus hispidus and others in that genus have separate males and females. As you probably already know, the females are considerably larger than the males.

I believe I already answered someone's question about Stenopus reproduction, so I'll run a search for it and post a link to it.

Haha! It turns out the answer about Stenopus was Post #11 in that same thread. I just gave you the link to Post #9 above about Lysmata reproduction but the topic starter had both Stenopus and Lysmata in his tank.

Stenopus are definitely not simultaneous hermaphrodites like Lysmata.



P.S. -- Let me know if you come across any sexually mature adult L. amboinensis that are hard shelled but are not carrying eggs. That would be interesting. It's possible there might be a very small percentage like that but I don't really know for sure. No one studies ornamental shrimp because they don't have any commercial value like food shrimp. I know that with regular white shrimp and brown shrimp (the kind you go shrimping for down here), there are a small percentage of individuals that are males but the great majority of them are hermaphrodites.

[pkc]

Ninong you are not being much help.

I looked at an individuals thead.

I do not want to see some ones interpretation of what they may think or have seen and passed it on in their way of interpreting it.

The ps you mentioned has been seen so many times it is ridicules, many a time have we gotten pairs, one with green eggs and the green or cream/green ovary colour in their back that shows it has those organs inside and the other with an equally hard shell and no green anywhere on or in it.

I used to work commercially and collect up to 5 lysmata pairs a day, sometimes they would be in a community, but normally as a pair, a hard bodied one with green in and out and the other hard body with no green anywhere.

i know the diference between them and the banded coral shrimp,that we find and they are in the thousands here, when commercial I would get up to 50 pairs per day,51 is my record. let alone what peter or Dave would get, they had the permits, I just worked with them and the size thing was very rarely seen as well.

This is the same with clown fish around here, they are never normally of a different size in either one of that mated pair , that’s normally the commercial guy selling an unmated pair, we used to do it as well, as you get more money for a (pair) than two singles.

The only clowns in the wild around here that of a different size are the ones that just lost their partner to predation and the same with shrimps, infact so many times I would take a single of the shrimps or clowns like latz or aks or tomatoes or pinks and when I find an opposite or small one I leave it with it to bond and the next day or week or month you come along again and you have a mated pair,more dollars.

Geez i do that in the tubs at home, with both clowns and shrimps.

At least the clowns up to a size will take on the sex needed to be the other half in that pair and we have bred from them, me a long time ago, I don’t have the patience any more, one of the guys is just starting latz after doing the rest easily for awhile as have others in the club, the latz are a pain as they like certain conditions for spawning and it takes some work.

If what you say about the red lines is true than they can do it both ways, because the ones we have gotten normally only show the opposite to what you say.

I will ask in ichthyology and research for Merrill or Jeff, Merrill will most likely know she is into inverts, Plus Peter has many overseas contacts, they will know where I can get some kind of a reference beyond an individual or if they just say so, sorry mate I don’t wish to be picky but they are some of the leading biologist here.

Interesting though, I had no idea that this was possible with in the red lines.

Now the harlequins might have an interesting story as well, I will have to ask as to what, if any, if the sea star eaters we find have anything weird about them.

Interesting ninong,its certainly some thing to think about and get my mind off all this garbage here at the moment.

[Ninong]

Ninong you are not being much help.

I looked at an individuals thead.

I do not want to see some ones interpretation of what they may think or have seen and passed it on in their way of interpreting it.

Actually, it's not based on "someone's interpretation," it's based on the scientific literature and the rather extensive commercial breeding of the Lysmata genus for the hobby trade.

This is the same with clown fish around here, they are never normally of a different size in either one of that mated pair , that’s normally the commercial guy selling an unmated pair, we used to do it as well, as you get more money for a (pair) than two singles.

Are you talking about Amphiprion clarkii? They're the only species that are approximately the same size as adults regardless of sex. Premnas biaculeatus (maroon clowns) show the greatest disparity in size between the sexes.

I'm not sure what you mean by your clownfish comment. The sizes are not very different in some species but the females are always larger, except with Clarkii's because they're about the same size. All of the species you mentioned are close in size as adults but the females are slightly larger.

The only clowns in the wild around here that of a different size are the ones that just lost their partner to predation and the same with shrimps, infact so many times I would take a single of the shrimps or clowns like latz or aks or tomatoes or pinks and when I find an opposite or small one I leave it with it to bond and the next day or week or month you come along again and you have a mated pair,more dollars.

Sure, as long as one of the clowns is smaller and NOT yet female, then you will get a bonded pair. You cannot get a bonded pair using two female clowns because ALL clowns are protandrous hermaphrodites incapable of sexual reversal. The male gonads are destroyed by a hormone secreted by the female gonads shortly after the female gonads are fully developed. With ALL clownfishes, once a female, always a female.

As far as the sizes of the various shrimps, the hermaphroditic shrimps are the same size. It's the ones -- like Stenopus -- that are not hermaphrodites that are different in size with the females being larger.

At least the clowns up to a size will take on the sex needed to be the other half in that pair and we have bred from them...

Right, "up to a size." As long as they aren't both females already, then you can get a mated pair. You just can't get a female to reverse sex. Sexually immature juveniles and sexually mature males are capable of progressing to female if the conditions permit. Sexual determination in ALL clownfishes is by social aggression. If you throw three juveniles of the same species and exactly the same size together in a 30-gal tank, the most aggressive of the three will get the most to eat and will become the larger of the three and the one to become the female. The next in the pecking order will become the male. The last in the pecking order will remain sexually immature. It will not and cannot become either male or female until something happens to one of the other two. If the male is removed, the sexually immature fish will become male. If the female is removed, the male will become the female and the sexually immature fish will become male. All of this assumes that the third fish in the pecking order survives. That may not happen with maroons.

If what you say about the red lines is true than they can do it both ways, because the ones we have gotten normally only show the opposite to what you say.

I will ask in ichthyology and research for Merrill or Jeff, Merrill will most likely know she is into inverts, Plus Peter has many overseas contacts, they will know where I can get some kind of a reference beyond an individual or if they just say so, sorry mate I don’t wish to be picky but they are some of the leading biologist here.

Tell them you want to know about sexual reproduction in Lysmata shrimp. Ask them if it's true that they are simultaneous hermaphrodites. Or just do a Google scholar search. I'm talking about peer-reviewed studies in the scientific literature, not hobby authors. Or just ask any of the people who are breeding them commercially now.

Now the harlequins might have an interesting story as well, I will have to ask as to what, if any, if the sea star eaters we find have anything weird about them.

I'm not sure what you mean by "weird." I haven't really looked up harlequin shrimp but since the males and females are noticeably different -- and since the males are smaller -- I would say that they're not likely to be hermaphrodites, and certainly not simultaneous hermaphrodites. In fact, I don't think I'll even bother to look it up. I'm 99% sure they're not just by looking at them.

P.S. -- Bauer, R.T. 2000. Simultaneous hermaphroditism in caridean shrimps: a unique and puzzling sexual system in the decapoda. Journal of Crustacean Biology 20:116-128.Bauer, R.T. and G.J. Holt. 1998. Simultaneous hermaphroditism in the marine shrimp Lysmata wurdemanni (Caridea: Hippolytidae): an undescribed sexual system in the decapod Crustacea. Marine Biology 132:223-235.Fielder, G.C. 1998. Functional, simultaneous hermaphroditism in female-phase Lysmata amboinensis (Decapoda: Caridea: Hippolytidae). Pacific Science 52:161-169.Lin, J. and D. Zhang. 2001. Reproduction in a simultaneous hermaphroditic shrimp Lysmata wurdemanni: any two will do? Marine Biology 139:919-922.

Those are not necessarily the most recent references on this subject. I found them attached to an article published seven years ago.

[Ninong]

Since I got into talking about hermaphroditism in fishes in my posts above, let me make sure I don't confuse anybody. Most reef fishes are hermaphroditic. That's more common than gonochorism (separate males and females) in reef fishes.

In fishes, there are three basic forms of hermaphroditism:

(1) Protogynous hermaphroditism, in which individuals develop first into females and turn later into males. This is the most common form.

(2) Protandrous hermaphroditism, in which the male state comes first.

(3) Synchronous hermaphroditism, where both male and female states coexist functionally -- this is a very uncommon form of hermaphroditism.

The sex reversal that occurs in protogynous and protandrous hermaphroditism is permanent. A female clownfish cannot reverse sex back to male and a male wrasse cannot reverse sex back to female. That's according to all of the scientific literature.

Hobbyists have reported what they believe to be sex reversal in Genicanthus angelfishes in their reef tanks but that's just anecdotal and probably not reliable. I believe all cases involved females changing to males and then back to females. Probably some other explanation for what they think they observed.
What happens in both protandrous and protogynous hermaphrodism is that the final stage gonads replace the previous stage gonads and the change is not reversable.

That third form of hermaphroditism, synchronous hermaphroditism, is rare. In those fishes, each individual has functioning male and female gonads. Two individuals will pair up to spawn. One will release eggs and the other will release sperm to fertilize them. Then they will change roles and do it all over again. That way they avoid self-fertilization.

There are a very few fish that are really, really strange. That would be the female-only species. I won't get into them here.

Anyway, if anybody wants to read up on this, I did a Google book search and came up with this.