Shags in Trouble

[Scorpeo]

So I'm new, yay right....hmm. I thought I could do this alone. The guy I buy my livestock from is a little.....dense. So talking to him sometimes doesn't help....really;;

So I have quite a system, though small, very healthy and thriving. However, I just recently purchased a sebae, and acclimating was well....challenging. I'm sure I caused a lot of unnecessary stress on poor Shags. But I'm new! He was doing great considering how "challenging" his acclimation was. One clown had hosted him well, I also believe she is the female because she is almost twice the size as the one with the small hole in its dorsal fin- dubbed Scotty. They started fighting over it yesterday, and shags looks bad, particularly shaggy. The tentacles are drawn up on one side. And spread out and great on the other.


What's going on? I've changed the water. I check it every day. I've bought 100 dollars worth of food so I can alternate his diet, and I got a timer on the light so as not to burn him out.

Here's the thing about the light. Shags opens up when I turn it on, and three or so hours later shrivles again, he's had enough right? I think so, he used to open back up when i turned the light off like ohh a sigh of relief! Now he doesn't and then will open up when i turn the light back on. Then shrivels again! I don't know what he wants, or what I'm looking at. Please someone advise....please advise

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEFLAND!

Your question has a bit more to do with the 'Shags' then with fish health, I think. I moved it here in the Reef Forum for that purpose.

If I understand your post correctly, you put in an Anemonefish in with a pair? Adding another Anemonefish in with an established pair of Anemonefish is not a good idea. The pair will fight to maintain their territory. There could now be confusion about which 2 fish should be the 'pair.' I would find another home for the third one.

But as far as the Shags go, others here may better give recommendations on their care and potential problems.

[kevinpo]

Hello,
The Heteractis crispa anemone is typically a sand, gravel, or reef rubble dweller. One of the signs of a healthy H. crispa anemone is that its foot is buried deep in the substrate. They typically reside where the rock meets the substrate. A floating (especially upside down) Sebae is and unhappy Sebae. Small pieces of raw shrimp fed once a week are a good food for this anemone. Do not over feed as this anemone can grow to 24" very quickly. High output lighting and moderate water flow is required for this anemone.

HTH,
Kevin

[Scorpeo]

He's doing a little better!
What would you say is adequate lighting? I think I have about 8-9 watts per gallon.

I read somewhere that strontium is bad for anemone. I had this reef kit this guy at petco sold me and told me would be good for the aquarium. This kit has a bottle of Strontium/Molybdenum. Should I use that? He looks considerably better now that I don't use it.

I have also changed the timer on his lighting. Instead of 3 hours in a long 24 hour period. I do two hours in the morning and two in the evening. He seems to like that a little better.

When you say shrimp do you mean the freezedried brine shrimp I have in arsenal of food or like shrimp humans eat?

[kevinpo]

Hello,
It really depends on the type of lighting and the depth of the tank. In general an average 20" tall tank with PC, VHO, T-5HO, or metal halide 150W -250W will do the job.

Unless you are growing lots of stony corals and not doing regular water changes mineral additives are not needed and can be harmful if overdosed.

A 8-9 hour photo period using halides or 12 hours using high output fluorescent is what I would recommend.

Raw shrimp from the local market rinsed and peeled works well. A Piece the size of a pencil eraser or slightly larger fed weekly will suffice.

Regards,
Kevin

[Scorpeo]

Shags has died,

Since then I have bought a new aquarium, a nanocube from jbj. It suits them well. I realized after the fact that my gravity was too low among the culmination of other issues I was having. Thanks for telling me.

What do you think of Coral and Anemone. Right now, I'm just starting out with some shrooms and later I'll upgrade when I'm more comfortable with acclimating things. But I have a long tentacle and the shrooms, and I'm wondering if they will be okay together.

Also, my clowns are acting terrified. Since I added the anemone, they are like isolated to a corner of the tank and will not venture far from it. Granted it's only been two days, and they hadn't been in the new tank too long before I added the anemone. Will they ever stop freaking out, or should I only introduce anemone they will host?

[sober_pollock]

Scorpeo.....

Slow down!!!!!


Forgive me if I have this wrong but, just going by the dates of your posts.....

You've added an anemone to an aquarium that is less than 18 days old!!!!!


pollock

[Scorpeo]

yeah.....

[zhenya]

Hi Scorpeo,

I agree with sober_pollock, you really need to look at size of your aquarium and stocking list for it. None of the so called nano aquariums are suitable to house host anemones. Especially anemone like the H.crispa. I've kept one in a 75g aquarium and it outgrew it in about three years and I had to give it away. Those things easily grow to two feet across in couple of years if fed well.
And then there is that patience thing, of course...
You need to have it to have a successfull reef tank in the future.
Do your research well, ask lots of questions...we are here for you.

;)

[Ninong]

Hi Scorpeo,

Since then I have bought a new aquarium, a nanocube from jbj.

But I have a long tentacle and the shrooms, and I'm wondering if they will be okay together.

Will they ever stop freaking out, or should I only introduce anemone they will host?

JBJ nanocubes come in 12-gal, 24-gal and 28-gal sizes, none of which is suitable for a long-tentacled anemone. Sorry.

In order for anyone to give you any specific advice, you will have to say exactly which size aquarium you own.

In order for anyone to offer advice on the chances of success in getting your clownfish to accept any particular species of host anemone, you will have to say exactly which species of clownfish you're asking about.

Shags has died,

Since then I have bought a new aquarium, a nanocube from jbj. It suits them well.

Your chances of success with any of the ten species of clownfish-hosting sea anemones in a newly-set up nano-cube aquarium are slim to none. You should always wait at least six months before attempting to put any of these anemones into a new aquarium.

It would be a good idea if you invested in a little more time in researching the requirements of these animals and the proper way to set up a reef aquarium before you invested any more money. The way you are going right now, you are doomed to fail. Sorry but that's just the way it is.

[Scorpeo]

Not to sound ungrateful, and I do welcome the advice, but allow me to clarify a little. One of you had a good point, before anyone can give useful advice I should let you know what I’m working with.
Okay Let’s restart this.
I am new to Reeflands not so much to the aquarium hobby itself. I started now, almost a year ago with just two ocellaris clowns, and a regal blue tang. I had an ich break out and could only save my clowns. Since then I was gifted a bristle star with 3 legs- that died of course- a chocolate chip star, and a turbo snail. That was my 20 gallon stand-alone. About 9-10 months into that tank I decided to get a Sebae, it died too. I found out later that my strips were bad, and I was testing the water with a weird kinda hydrometer. Since then I’ve bought all new equipment and upgraded my tank to a 28 gal. nano. I migrated all but 2 gallons from the old tank, and half the sand bed. I didn’t use the whole sand bed, because I didn’t want black sand in the new tank so I put it on the bottom. The other half of the sandbed I got from my friend’s established reef tank, which is the tank I own now because he upgraded to a 100gal. He had that one for some years, I don’t know. I let that tank cycle for about 2 weeks. All the water parameters were ideal and just plain beautiful. I wanted to start working with coral so I bought mushrooms which have been in the tank for almost two weeks and are fully open. I may put Iodine and calcium in the tank once a week. But I usually change the water and test it first.
A few days ago, I bought a long tentacle off a friend who also works at my LFS. He said I should try it, because it’s definitely a juvenile, before I tried to work with another Sebae which is considerably harder to maintain. I brought it home and dripped it for like 4 hours. When I introduced it, the anemone opened right up. I tested the water before I started the drip the pH was 8.4, s.g. 1.023, nitrate was in the lower ‘okay’ range which causes no alarms as I have two sea urchins (that I hawk now that I have coral), 20-25 blue-legs, and a turbo snail. If I do have an algae break-out they’ll help. The nitrite was ideal, or non-existent, and the water couldn’t have looked better. That day, my clowns were huddled in a corner and refused to leave it. I left the moon LEDs on overnight and most of the next day and they seemed to go to it. I was happy that they took to it, but they looked like they were hyperventilating. That was a little weird. They had never done that to my knowledge, and I don’t remember them doing that when I introduced the sebae. Yesterday, which would have made three days between the two being introduced, they were a little more calm and rubbing on it. Today, four days post introduction, they are all over it. They swim right through the tentacles and aren’t even beefing with the anemone crab that it came with. I’d say the tank is just fine.
When I had the sebae, it was already having problems after 2 days post intro, and that tank was 8 months cycled. Maybe there was a miscommunication but my tank isn’t as young as you guys think. All I did was move it and add 8gals to it which is almost a month ago. As for the long tentacle outgrowing it, I am well aware of this and I only plan to keep it for 6-8 months max, and have already arranged its new home. It’s going back to my friend who sold me a tank to live in a 100gal beauty. I’ve only fed it once since I’ve had it; a small piece of raw tiger-tale shrimp. Daily I feed the clowns brineshrimp or pellets, and flake food once in a while so the urchins can get some coolness in the food dept.
I have pictures of the tank from day two and three post intro. Check them out I will post them after I leave work.

[Ninong]

Scorpeo,

If you put a regal tang in a 20-gal tank, you really need to do some more research before you go any further.

You seem to have provided some additional information in the above post that may help others avoid the miscommunication you seem to have perceived. It's really not miscommunication but a lack of communication that is causing the problem.

We now know that your present aquarium is 28 gallons and your previous aquarium was 20 gallons. We also know that you had problems previously with ich.

We know very little about your water parameters other than that they are "ideal," according to your "strips." None of the strip tests are reliable. You should consider investing in better test kits. It's very important that you know your exact levels of calcium, magnesium and alkalinity. It's impossible to operate a reef aquarium without that knowledge. As far as iodine and strontium are concerned, there is no need to test for these in most reef aquariums as it is very unlikely that their levels would be too low, unless you never, ever do water changes and you don't ever add food to your tank.

If you're trying to keep an anemone -- any anemone -- you should raise your salinity to natural levels: 35 ppt (1.026 SG). These animals do not do well at unnaturally low salinity.

Iodine is toxic in excess. You should never add iodine unless you have tested for it and found the levels to be inadequate. Natural seawater levels of iodine are 0.06 ppm (all forms). This could be another reason your anemone is not doing as well as it should. Strontium is also toxic at evevated levels and should never be added unless you know for sure that it is below natural levels in your tank. Natural levels are 8-9 ppm. I believe you have stopped adding this and have noticed that your animals seem relieved.

If you still have a chocolate chip sea star in your aquarium you should be aware that these animals are carnivorous and will eat coral polyps and even small bottom-dwelling fish. I'm not sure if you know that or not. Maybe you do.

You just posted that your ocellaris clownfish (Amphiprion ocellaris) have accepted your long-tentacled anemone (Macrodactyla doreensis) as a surrogate host. It's not a natural host for that species but as long as they have adopted it it's fine. It's always better to try to pair up clownfish with anemones that are known as their natural hosts. Your chances of success are much, much better that way.

[Scorpeo]

Chips (the chocolate chip star) was removed a month ago when I started considering coral. As for the test strips, I'm saving toward one of those things it starts with an F. It makes everything plain english. I was thinking of purchasing a different test kit, because it bothers me that i don't know exactly what my nitrate ppm is. T

The tang thing was a fiascle. The guy I had set it all up, put it in there. And I started by saying he's....dense. I don't really deal with him anymore. This was when i was brand new to the hobby. Later I read that they only do well in 30gal min. I also read that anywhere from 1.023-1.024 is good for anemone. And several ppl told me that as well. There is even an article on this site that says the same thing. I will look into the sg you mentioned but I will have to look into that a little more, it sounds a little high to me.
Additionally, I've never said this particular anemone is having problems. It looks great. My concern was for the clowns. I looked in on them at lunch and they look fine as well. Time will tell, until then I bid you adieu.

BTW I did mention that all that's left in the tank was urchins, a snail, and blue-legs..... might help to read it all first, sometimes you sound condescending ninong.

Thanks for the support Pollock and gene!

[Ninong]

Later I read that they only do well in 30gal min.

That is completely incorrect. You may have read that on a vendor's website but whereever you read it, it is absolutely, positively bogus! No tang will do well in a 30-gal tank!

I also read that anywhere from 1.023-1.024 is good for anemone. And several ppl told me that as well. There is even an article on this site that says the same thing.

All of those people are wrong, too. You didn't read any article on this site that says that 1.023-1.024 SG is good for an anemone. If you did, please give me the link so that we can correct it immediately.

The ONLY article that I know of on this site that deals with anemone husbandry is this one by Dr. Ron Shimek. I will quote from that article for you:

Basic Physical Requirements

Sea anemones are simple animals; they lack any way to significantly vary or regulate their internal environment. All such animals are dependent upon the water quality of their environment for their well-being. They must have more-or-less perfect coral-reef water conditions. The water must have oceanic salinity of 35 to 36 parts per thousand and temperatures from 27°C to 29°C (about 81°F to about 85°F). The addition of strontium and other similar pollutants should be avoided. Water movement is a necessity; however, the acceptable force, direction, and duration of currents may vary and should be experimented with.

I will look into the sg you mentioned but I will have to look into that a little more, it sounds a little high to me.

It's not high at all. It's perfectly natural. In fact, it couldn't be more natural. Salinity in the vicinity of tropical coral reefs averages 35 ppt (1.026 SG). It's much higher than that in the Red Sea, so if you were setting up a Rea Sea biotope, you might want to raise the salinity to 37 ppt.

Apparently you are getting your information from some very unreliable sources. One of the first lessons you have to learn in this hobby is that a lot of the information handed out by typical LFS employees is completely bogus. Most of them, with only a few exceptions, are clueless. They don't get paid enough to know anything.

Virtually all of the minimum tank size recommendations found on vendors' websites are incorrect. They aren't in the business of discouraging you from buying what they're selling.

According to Scott Michael, the minimum tank size for a regal tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) is 100 gallons!. Not 30 gallons, or 75 gallons, but 100 gallons. Personally, I think 135 gallons (6' long tank) would be a better absolute minimum size but I won't argue with his opinion on this as he has been doing this for a long time. Remember, those are minimums.

...sometimes you sound condescending ninong.

Unfortunately the truth often is perceived as condescending to someone who has been misinformed for several months. Your current views on tank size recommendations, salinity, anemone requirements, the necessity of reliable test kits all reveal a total lack of knowledge about the basic husbandry requirements necessary for keeping a successful reef aquarium.

Until you have the time to research all of this stuff more thoroughly, you will continue to have problems.

When we post responses in the threads on this board, we do so knowing that the topic starter is not the only one who will be reading the answers. Therefore, we consider it important to correct any misinformation that creeps up. Your experience is, unfortunately, typical of hobbyists who set up a new aquarium without knowing the basic requirements ahead of time. Information provided by your local Petco, or even most LFS, is not reliable, as I believe you have already discovered.

Good luck!



P.S. -- From Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley: "Seawater with a salinity of 35 ppt is about 1.0264 times as dense as freshwater at the same temperature, and so is said to have a specific gravity of 1.0264."

36 ppt salinity would be 1.0271 SG. Therefore, in terms of specific gravity, what Dr. Ron Shimek is recommending is 1.0264-1.0271 SG (35-36 ppt) for keeping an anemone.

You can convert specific gravity to ppt salinity using this handy little conversion calculator. It's extremely accurate. Anything else you may read online that is different, is incorrect. There is a lot of incorrect information online when it comes to salinity and specific gravity. Caveat emptor.

P.P.S. -- Looking at the two photos of "Shags" in your profile, it is obvious that this anemone was completely bleached when you purchased it and its chances of survival were minimal at best.