Bio balls bad?

[vio]

Hey everyone. im in the process of cycling my new set up in which i plan to attempt my first reef. on this set up i have a wet dry and In my wet dry i have bio balls. recently while just browsing all the reef forums out there i have been seeing a lot of people saying bio balls are terrible and should never be used because they are a nitrate "factory". my question is what should i use instead of bioballs? and if bioballs are so efficient at decomposing ammonia and nitrites to nitrate why is that so bad? isnt nitrate the end result anyways? if i do regular water changes what is so bad about bioballs? Your opinion on this is greatly appreaciated. i am trying to do this the right way but it seems there are about 500 right ways to keep a reef. also i plan to only keep a few fish and some xenias, zoas, and shrooms nothing too fancy so let me know what is suitable for this. thanks.

[Steve McKay]

I'm upgrading my 30 to a 50.I went out and bought a wet dry too,I learned that algae
grows and dies on the bio balls producing excess nitrate.If your going to have a reef,
your going to have LR.If you have enough LR (1.5lb per gal. suggested)you don't need
a biological filter in your wet dry.The LR will be your biological filter,but you must have
good water circulation to push water through the LR.You might want to check out
koralia circulation pumps at hydor.com.At their website they have suggested sizes for
your aquarium.I bought two K2s for my 50.When I set up my 50,I will be transferring
the LR from my 30 and when I setup my wet dry there won't be any bio balls in it.
By the way welcome to Fish Lore,were neighbors I'm in Columbus.

[vio]

could i just replace the bio balls with some live rock rubble up to my water level in my sump in addition to the rock in my tank? if i did this would my tank be more vulnerable to NH4 swings and NO2 swings? isnt the end of the nitrogen cycle nitrate anyways so why is so bad to get there quickly and maintain water changes with bio balls?

[Parrothead]

read the sticky at the top of this forum, "read before you ask", there is alot of useful information in there pretaining to setting up a reef and maintaining one, read that and if you get confused we are here to help,

BTW, Welcome to Reeflands.

Tanks,
Robert

[Steve McKay]

LR in your wet dry would do the same thing as bio balls.It isn't a matter of turning NH3
to NO2 and then to NO3.The bio balls or LR would produce more NH3 from the dying algae,which in turn leads to more NO3.When you do a water change you don't get rid
of all the NO3,just the % of the amount of water you change.NO3 will build up and
and could be to high for coral even after a large water change.If your NO3 was 20 and you did a 50% water change it would be at 10 still to high for corals.The only way
you could keep NO3 down would be biweekly water changes of 50% or more.That would be unnecessary and you would get tired of that quickly.The main reason for water changes should be for replacing trace elements not fighting with NO3.Also the end result isn't NO3,but N2 (Nitrogen gas).This is one reason I'm replacing my 30 with a 50,I have crushed coral for substrate.The particle size traps food and detritus,the fish and most inverts can't get to this waste,so it ends up being NO3.When I get my
50 I'll use sand,most food and detritus will stay on the surface.Where fish and inverts
can eat it.Not only am I going to have sand,but 5"of it to create a DSB (deep sand bed).A DSB creates low or no oxygen areas deep in the sand,anaerobic bacteria that
break down NO3 to N2 reside there.The N2 then disperses your aquarium as gas.This
is the end result that I'm after.I would also suggest a good protein skimmer,this get the gunk out before it turns to NO3.One must do as much as he can to keep NO3 as
low as possible,if you want healthy corals.

[Steve McKay]

Something I left out,having sand keeps food and detritus on the surface Where good water circulation can keep it in suspension,so a good skimmer can get rid of it.

[Ramer]

Add a skimmer as well as the live rock.

[vio]

ok so i sorted through the sticky, which is very helpful btw, but i still have a couple of questions. i have 40lbs of very fine (sugar) live sand in my 55 that is cycling as we speak. that amounts to about 1-1.5 inches. Nowhere near the dsb qualifications. should i add more or will what i have give me an anaerobic environment of sorts? also would replacing the bioballs slowly with live rock rubble (not crushed coral actual live rock rubble) be worth the money it would cost? and one final question should i cycle with the bioballs or when i replace them will my tank cycle again? in total right now i have 25lbs of rock that im cycling my tank with then i have 25lbs more i will be moving over from another tank. will this alone give me some anaerobic activity? any help is appreciated im just trying to do this the most successful way without breaking the bank.

[Parrothead]

If you want a dsb, add the sand now, I would also recommend if you are able to, move the live rock as well, if you add either later you will exp. at least a mini cycle, I would not recommend lr rubble in place of the bio balls, it will still collect detrius and result in the same nitrate issues as bio balls do, and by all means if you don't have one already, get a skimmer on the tank or in the sump. There are some good skimmers out there, my personal favorite is the AquaC remora pro, it is a hang on the tank skimmer that rocks, it will do an awesome job on a 55 gallon tank. JMHO

Tanks,
Robert

[vio]

i do have a skimmer already it is not a good one but im saving up for the aqua c i hear its the best but the seaclone i got with the set up i bought is suitable for the time. surprisingly it is working ok. not pulling as dark as i would like but it is pulling a lot. also wouldnt live rock rubble under the water line in my sump create an excellent anaerobic environment through which all tank water must pass? i guess my only thing left to do is experiment with different set ups slowly and see what work best. i dont know if i will go with the dsb because i have heard it can create a bed of toxicity and if it gets stirred up your chemistry will be far off balance. is there any truth to this? all i want is a few fish some zoas mushrooms and possibly some xenias. i'm not looking to keep lps or sps for now so let me know what is suitable for these.

[Steve McKay]

No,it won't create anaerobic conditions.Anaerobic means low or no O2.Your wet dry would be aerobic.The bacteria that convert NH3 to NO2 and NO2 to NO3 are aerobic that is what a wet dry is all about,but you don't need it as a wet dry because you will have LR.Just take the bio balls out and use it as a sump,if you want to put something in it put your heater and a skimmer in it.The bacteria that convert NO3 to N2 (Nitrogen gas) are anaerobic,the only way you will have that is with a DSB or there are special filters for just removing NO3 using anaerobic bacteria.I would suggest starting over like I did and use a 4"or 5"DSB.The deeper the better.You don't have anything in your tank yet,sit back and think about it decide what you want.Take your time and do what you think is right for you.

[vio]

i just checked my levels during my cycle and my ammonia is 3.0ppm no2 is 2ppm and no3 is up to 50ppm. why is n03 so high?? should i be worried?? or should i just begin water changes now or wait till ammonia and nitrite drops off? can this be due to the bio balls or the fact i am curing rock while i cycle the tank?

[Parrothead]

Do not do a water change in mid cycle, all that will do is delay it.

[Steve McKay]

Your ok,your levels are high because there was probably a lot of organics in the LR and sand.What is your water source.Tap water is a no no it will have at least 5-10 NO3 in it. It will also have phosphate,which helps algae grow.If you are using tap water test it before salt is added and you will see,test it for copper too.Copper is deadly to fish and especially inverts.Always test your water source to make sure its safe.It might be wise to invest in a RO system,I personally have a distiller it takes out everything a RO may not.I don't know if your going to add more sand or not that's up to you,but I'd add the LR and take the bio balls out now.So the colonies of bacteria will be in the LR only,if you wait then take the bio balls out the bacteria in the LR will not be at full strength.Once your levels of NH3 and NO2 are 0.0 add your first fish to keep the bacteria colonies growing.If you are going to have corals don't have a lot of fish,the more fish the more NO3.I have a Blue Damsel,Six Line Wrasse and a Yellow Watchman Goby all relatively small fish,even though I'm about to have a tank the size of yours I will probably not have any more fish.Note the word "probably".

[Steve McKay]

Again I left something out,Parrothead is right do a water change.I'd go for up to a 50%
water change,your cycle will last longer but it will cut your NO3 in half for now.

[Steve McKay]

I made a mistake I thought Parrothead said do a water change.He is right,normally you don't until the cycle is over.My NO3 went to 80 but I was testing with a dip in test strip
which is notoriously inaccurate,I don't use those anymore.I did a water change mid cycle
and it didn't affect anything much.It's up to you.

[vio]

i think im goign to go with some more sand. im going to double what i have so hopefully that will give me three inches or so of very fine sand. i cant move the liverock over yet because it has a fish that needs to come with it and i dont want to leave that tank with no lr and stress the fish out. The bioballs i will be removing after my cycle simply because they will expedite my cycle and then i will slowly stock the aquarium. has anyone ever used the stuff called garf grunge? is it worth the money?

[Steve McKay]

Try to get 4"if possible,3.5" is the minimum that will probably give you anaerobic zones in your sand.Adding more sand was a good idea.I would move the rock the fish will be fine.Yes,the bio balls will help cycle faster but faster is not always best I would remove them that will make the bacterial colonies stronger in the rock.Never heard of garf grunge,I just googled it.Nothing wrong with it,if you get some you don't need a lot.A few pounds will be enough,it will seed the sand you have or add.

[Steve McKay]

I would also look into getting some inverts that will turn over the sand.You may have some already in your LR that you just got or the LR in with your fish.There are detritivorekits you can buy that will help with this,here's two places IndoPacific Sea Farms : : : : Indo-Pacific Sea Farms : : : : and Inland Aquatics Inland Aquatics Homepage take a look at these sites and you will see the kinds of sand critters I'm talking about.Take it slow you don't have to buy everything they have, a few will reproduce and you will have enough.

[Parrothead]

Before adding your clean up crew, let the cycle end, anything critter added right now will probably not survive, be patient, let nature do it's thing, when your cycle levels out, no amm. no nitrite, then do a partial water change and add your clean up crew.

Tanks,
Robert