New Salt H2O tank – skip cycling idea?!

[MarianaK]

I am getting my 9 yr old daughter a salt tank for Christmas and have an idea that I am hoping to pursue to avoid the cycling process of a new tank. But first a very brief background. I had a 150 about 20 years ago, but not a reef tank. I have purchased, but not picking up until after Xmas a new 75 gallon w/ overflow set up (tank, sump, 9.5 return pump, protein skimmer, T5 lighting system, and the other necessities). 20 years ago, my tank did not have a sump, just an under gravel set up. My daughter, Mariana is name after the Mariana’s Islands (not the trench!) as she was conceived in Guam, where we used to live.

My plan (which the owner of the LFS – Local Fish Shop?) said is feasible is to set up the new tank and get it up to temp. I am then buying the contents out of an 18-24 month established tank (“live rock”, coral, some fish, inverts, and about 40 pounds of his existing sand).

My plan is to first move the approximate 40 pounds of sand (this is about 1/3 the sand of the established tank) into my tank and let it settle for one day (again, bringing it back up to temperature).

The second day of the move, I plan to remove the live rock from the established tank and install that in my tank, giving it a little time to settle before adding anything else.

FIRST QUESTION ABOUT MOVE: Should I put the established sand on the bottom then add new “live” sand to the top? Or should I put the new “live” sand on the bottom and then add the established sand to the top of it? FWIW, my LFS guy suggested to siphon the sand out of the established tank versus trying to “shovel” up, any comments on that?

SECOND QUESTION ABOUT MOVE: Should I put established sand into the sump? Should any sand be put into the sump? Should established “live” rock be put into the sump? Should any “live” rock be put into the sump? My LFS told me I should put and keep “live” rock in the sump.

Does the sump need to be lighted? Lighted with just “live” rock? Lighted with established sand? Or not lighted at all? If lighted, do I need to get special lights (ie. like the T5) or will any light source be acceptable?

I have been warned by my LFS that in taking this approach, there is really no difference that in relocating a tank. And that in doing this, a subsequent mini cycle is likely to occur with inbalances in the water. Understanding this, the LFS suggests performing daily water tests and possibly daily water changes to dilute some of the spikes that may occur. Do you agree with this assessment? Am I likely to loose “live stock” in this process? Am I likely to loose most/a lot/all of the life stock in this process?

Disclaimer: I have read through many of the forums, the “live rock” article and the Sump and Overflow articles. We will also be getting a RO system to make our own water as we are on well water, but not sure if we will be able to produce enough water initially for the initial fill up.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions, advice, warnings, etc. . . that can be offered.

[Parrothead]

the minute you disturb the sand bed you are gonna have to cycle the tank, I'd just put all new sand, and go thru the cycle, JMHO

[MarianaK]

Will using "established" sand be more of a risk than using totally new sand? Are you saying that if I use this approach (which is designed to just mimick re-locating a tank) that it is a true full re-cycle? If this is the case, won't everything in the tank be likely to die off? Is my objective not possible then?

[Parrothead]

Ideally, you should use new sand, and take a couple of cupfuls of the established sand bed to seed the new sand bed, add all live rock to the tank at the sametime, with that established sand bed, when you disturb you are disturbing the enviorment for lack of a better word. I see if I can get some of the other gurus to pop in here real quick and add their thoughts

[MarianaK]

Parrothead, funny that you say you will try to get some of the other "gurus" involved in this thread (which I greatly appreciate). You were actually one of the people I was hoping would offer your 2 cents. I have read quite a few of the forums and found that you are both active and have frequently provided both what appears to be good and detailed information. I felt like I got an early Christmas present when you responded so quickly. Thanks so much.

[zhenya]

Hi MarianaK,

FIRST QUESTION ABOUT MOVE: Should I put the established sand on the bottom then add new “live” sand to the top? Or should I put the new “live” sand on the bottom and then add the established sand to the top of it? FWIW, my LFS guy suggested to siphon the sand out of the established tank versus trying to “shovel” up, any comments on that?

You should only get about the top 1/2" of the old sand from that older tank, providing that it is a fine grade sand and not crushed coral type.
And, if you are planing to have deep sand bed in your new tank, I would construct the sand bed first and then put some of the sand from older tank on top of your own sand bed.
I would try to use small shovel instead of syphoning. You can carefully slide that shovel/spatula about half inch below the suface of the sand bed and remove sections of the sand.

However, having said all that, I would just construct my own sand bed with the new sand and use literally few cups of the sand from another tank to seed it.

To be honest, you shouldn't have to wait all that long for the cycle to be over since you are using cycled live rock.

SECOND QUESTION ABOUT MOVE: Should I put established sand into the sump? Should any sand be put into the sump? Should established “live” rock be put into the sump? Should any “live” rock be put into the sump? My LFS told me I should put and keep “live” rock in the sump.

I personally dislike having anything in the sump except equipment neccessary to run the tank. If you have refugium in the sum then it's totally different ball game. I would put some rubble and a handfull of sand in the fuge to help animals (amphipods, copepods, etc.) establish colonies in there. A good size ball of chaetomorpha algae and you are set with the fuge. The light could be a small "grow lamp" in the reflector from Home Depot on the reversed light cycle. Meaning it is on at night and off during day time.

[Parrothead]

Hey,

What can I say, I was hatched at Bronson there in the Zoo

Grew up St. Joe/Stevensville Area

[Parrothead]

Now we are talking,

Gene, My hero

[MarianaK]

Parrothead, Mariana (my daughter and username, which will be shared by us once Xmas comes) was also born there. We had just moved here from Guam at the time.

Gene, I understand what you are saying about just the top layers of the established sand bed. But I thought I would benefit by getting the oxygen starved layers of the sand bed for the purposes of a DSB (deep sand bed)? Will those life forms not move over to the new tanks due to their oxygen starved environment being disrupted from the move?

[MarianaK]

Gene, also with the sump that I am getting, it does have baffles. Do I do the refugium in one of the baffle sections or is that a complete additional tank down with the sump? Do you suggest I start with a refugium or just the sump? I am not really sure that I truly know the definition of a refugium though.

[Parrothead]

Here is some real good sources of information to get you started
Click here before you ask, (links to answers)

This will help you with fuge, fuge/sump which is what I will be using here comes the first of the year

[Parrothead]

you can do both in the same area, alot will depend on how big of a fuge you want, and if a seperate fuge is desired, how space is available, check out some of the articles in that sticky, you be pleased.

[Parrothead]

Oh, one other important item, if you sump contains bio-balls, lose them at setup, don't even start out with, you rock and sand is your bio filter

[Parrothead]

I will be back on a little later, got a client dropping off some work for me to do, catch up with you later this afternoon.

[MarianaK]

Yeah, I heard not to use the bioballs from my LFS, they suggested to use the live rock. I too am heading out for a couple hours, taking my people for our Holiday Lunch.

I have gone through a bunch of the before you get started, but I will take a look at the items you suggest. I am trying to print the better articles out so that my daughter and I have a good resource for the future.

[Ramer]

Hi, I bought a 90 gallon set up that had been up for around two years. It was a good days drive away. I used most of the sand and all the live rock. The tank still went through the cycle, We watched it grow and run its course and did a lot more reading while we waited for the cycle to complete. I think it still took around 2-3 months before our levels were fish safe
This is my two cents.

[zhenya]

Gene, also with the sump that I am getting, it does have baffles. Do I do the refugium in one of the baffle sections or is that a complete additional tank down with the sump? Do you suggest I start with a refugium or just the sump? I am not really sure that I truly know the definition of a refugium though.

Well, it all depends on the size of the sump and the way those baffles are constructed.
Here's a good starting point on refugiums and the ways to set them up.
Variations on a Refugium: Installation Options - Reef Hobbyist Online Magazine

Defenition of refugium is quite simple.., it is a refuge. A place where certain animals, or algae, could grow without predation. If you grow algae in it and then remove portion of it you will be exporting some of the nutrients that this algae had consumed via biomass. That mostly being nitrogen and phosphorus in the form of phosphates.

[Parrothead]

Thanks Ramer,

He's gonna cycle no matter which way he goes, I think Gene and I got him in the right direction, please stay with us here, as he's gonna need our help.

By the way, Merry Christmas to you and yours.......

[MarianaK]

Okay, I read the article and have a slightly better understanding of the refugium and its intended purpose.

My main question still exists about the type, intensity and destructive nature of my plan to basically eliminate or at least greatly reduce the impact of the cycling process to be the equivalent of moving an existing fish tank.

Back in the day (20 years) ago, I started with a 55 gallon tank. Upgraded to a 150 gallon tank by re-using most of the water and the complete gravel set for the new tanks under gravel filtration system. This process was completed with no loss of life to the tank's inhabitants.

Roughly 1 year later, the 150 gallon tank was broken down and moved to a new location, where it was re-set up the same day. Again, the process went off without the loss of any life. Possible resulting mostly from luck, I don't know.

What I observed from this process then, was that while the two moves likely resulted in a certain degree of re-cycling, these reduced cycles did not cause the loss of life to the contents. Of course the filtration systems were different as will be the lifestock (no live corals in those days for me).

Don't people break down and move tanks fairly regularly (ie. with moves, sales, new tank purchases, etc. . . ). In these instances, is the common practice to just start over from scratch? Obviously, many such moves cannot be combined with a two tank arrangement where during a move, a new tank is installed in the house 2-3 months in advance for it to cycle, to accept the incoming life from the tank that needs to be broken down.

I want to avoid a huge misake, if that is the direction I am heading. However, if I am on a rather safe path and am likely to have to be more proactive in the first couple months (ie. more regular water changes, etc. . . ), then I can deal with this is I am likely to be safe from loss of life.

So, am I going to kill everything or most everything that I move or am I more likely to loose 1-2 things and possibly none?

[Ninong]

A 9-gal tank is really a very small nano tank. I see that you called it a "fish tank." What fish do you plan to keep in this 9-gal tank???

Never mind. I'm really blind.