Am I reintroducing Nitrate and Phosphate back to the tank by feeding CAULERPA?

[Parrothead]

your tank is also severly overloaded, that is gonna contribute big time to your nitrate problems, way to many fish

[rluix]

You know.... One water change every 3 weeks, with that many fish, isn't enought, i would recommend a weekly 15% water change, it doesn't matter if the tank is big, because with that many fish, the nitrates, ammonia etc will go up as if it was a nano tank.

[Steve McKay]

I missed that part,till now.19 fish,that means each fish has 3.9473684210526315789473684210526 gallons to himself.Now I see your problem!You have a 75g nano tank.

[Parrothead]

Steve, based on his posted dimensions he has a 180, but still with 19 fish and most of them being tangs, that are at present med in size, it is still way overstocked, you and I both know people who have tanks twice this size and have no where near that many fish, We also have a very experienced friend here who is helping me with my 180 build, you know who he is, only recommends 1 Tang, not a dozen, he needs to reduce his population or he is gonna start losing fish and corals

[Steve McKay]

I apologize,it's a 180g nano tank.It's time for the Tang Police!

[Parrothead]

Hell, he's got a dozen in there, we are talking about organized crime, whats he gonna do when the a 6 - 8 inches plus+++ if they live that long

[Steve McKay]

Hell, he's got a dozen in there, we are talking about organized crime, whats he gonna do when the a 6 - 8 inches plus+++ if they live that long

In that case it's time for the S.W.A.T. sniper.

[Ninong]

3 aiptasia thats hiding with my daisy ... really dont know how to take them out without disturbing the daisy and mushrooms

If you can reach the Aiptasia with a syringe, just inject them with plain white vinegar. It will definitely kill them and it won't cause any problems in your tank. A lot of vinegar would tend to lower your pH but that all depends on how much you use and the size of your tank. You can certainly inject about 1 ml of vinegar into half a dozen or so Aiptasia without causing any problems at all.

Frozen brine shrimp has very little nutritional value. Maybe that's what your LFS was talking about? Frozen mysis shrimp would be much better. Ocean Nutrition makes a full range of excellent frozen foods. Some frozen foods may contain a little extra phosphate, which is why some hobbyists rinse the frozen food first before feeding it to their tank. I think it all depends on the quality of the frozen food. I have always liked the frozen foods from Ocean Nutrition.

They also sell some really excellent "seaweed" products in three 'flavors' -- red, green and brown. Skip the brown stuff and just go with the red and the green if you can get it. You have a lot of tangs in your tank (probably too many) and they will love this stuff. Stick it to the side of the tank using a "lettuce clip." Or attach it to a small piece of live rock with rubber bands. I didn't have any tangs because my tank was only 120 gallons but I did have a foxface rabbitfish that loved the Ocean Nutrition seaweed, especially the red and the green.

Your 1" sandbed is too shallow to be of any help with your nitrate problem. It's too bad it's not at least 2-3" deep so that it could provide denitrification capacity to your system. A nice sand bed (at least 3" deep) would become populated with lots of different worms and microcrustaceans and provide nutritent processing capabilities as well as being a source of food for your tank: larvae from the polychaetes, etc.

You might also want to consider adding some trochus snails and maybe even two or three Mexican turbo snails (Turbo fluctuosus). Maybe a few cerith snails, too. Also, try to get a few Nassarius snails to clean up any meaty detritus. They're carrion eaters, so they won't eat any algae. Get N. vibex, if possible. If not, see if you can get a couple of those large Pacific Nassarius snails. I can't remember their scientific name right now but they're about an inch long. The N. vibex are only about half an inch. If you decide to increase the depth of your sand bed, then you could consider adding maybe one small sand-mopping Holothurian cucumber and maybe one small fighting conch (Strombus alatus). Not S. gigas because they get way too big for a home aquarium.

It wouldn't be all that hard to increase the depth of the sand bed in your aquarium. It's a lot easier to do that than to have to remove something like crushed coral. Just add about 1/2" layer at a time and then wait a couple of weeks before adding any more. Lower a bag of new sand (just plain aragonite sand) to the bottom of the tank and then gradually lift up the bag to release the new sand as you drag the bag over the sand bed's surface. You will have a cloudy mess on your hands for a few hours but it won't hurt anything and it will clear up within a few hours.

That's my tip of the day: increase the depth of your sand bed to between two to three inches. That will do wonders for your nitrate problem. My other tip of the day is to consider removing all of the C. racemosa from your system and think about maybe not feeding it to your tangs anymore. See if you can find any red or green Gracilaria algae. It's extremely easy to propagate in your refugium and your tangs and rabbitfish will love this stuff.

[tbalankura]

Thank you again Ninong, again your posts are very professional and a lot of fish/animals in my tank (and hopefully other people tanks as well) will be much happier.

I'll go search for Ocean Nutrition, unfortunately my access to quality frozen food is limited here in Bangkok. Takes up to 3 months sometimes to get what I ordered (and they get very pricey here)

To the Tang Police and Sniper ... I admit having too many fishes in the tank. The reason was because I lost one of my FOWLR tank (its 15 years++ old) and I had to bring over the fish to the other tank. Having them for so long, I really can't sell/give them to anyone. Though crowded, I do make sure i have enough hiding space at night for all of them and I keep plenty of swimming space in front of the tank where I have the Vortech going at full speed so they could enjoy the tides.

Right now my goal is to combat the Nitrates and I will follow Ninong suggestions, increasing my sand bed to 3" (Aragonite are way expensive here and takes forever to order but i'll get them somehow)

I'm excited about the vinegar method, I could see the aips growing dramatically during the nitrate spike, was kind of worried they would spread.

Thanks again to all of you, I really appreciate all your help.

Nick

[gregony]

That's a lot of livestock in that tank. If you can't let go of some of the fish, you'll need to consider increasing the size of your refugium. What did you do with your other tank? Lost it, like, lost it lost it, or just had some power outage or something. I hate to disagree with Ninong (it's not really a disagreement per se), but unless the livestock list changes, I don't think the feeding regimen is the problem, and I don't think a deeper sand bed will solve your problem. You've got a bad case of toomanyfishinthetankalitus. If I were you, I'd get rid of the sailfin, the two yellows, the two blues, and the two filefish. How have you been able to keep the filefish from eating your coral, I don't know, as that's what filefish eat. The blue and yellow tangs are pretty common, so you shouldn't miss them too much. The sailfin will end up being the biggest, so you get the most bang for your buck by getting rid of him. If you don't get rid of some fish, you're going to start losing them, and if that sohal goes first, its gonna break your heart.

[Ninong]

I hate to disagree with Ninong (it's not really a disagreement per se), but unless the livestock list changes, I don't think the feeding regimen is the problem, and I don't think a deeper sand bed will solve your problem. You've got a bad case of toomanyfishinthetankalitus.

His present problem with high nitrate is NOT caused by his fish load because his fish are all very, very small:

Fish: too many including:
2 blue tangs 1"
1 Sohal 3"
3 purple tangs 2"
2 yellow tangs 2"
1 sixline
2 salifin
1 foxface 2"
3 clowns
2 File fish
1 Powder blue 2"
1 Mandarin (he came very small and shy but is now very big and likes to show off)
(weird but Very small aggression in my tank and they all are very healthy and friendly to my hands at feeding)

His present problem is caused by a lack of sufficient denitrification capacity. A nice sand bed would add a tremendous amount of denitrification capacity. This is exactly the same problem people with trickle filters run into: too much nitrification and not enough denitrification.

At some point in the near future he will have to deal with his tang navy but it's not contributing to his present problem.

[Steve McKay]

I agree with Ninong 100%,A DSB will also provide the proper habitat for sand dwelling species.

[Parrothead]

Yeah, it's only at least 3 feet of fish, he doesn't list some sizes, so being generous it's only 36" of fish, some which should not be housed together

[Ninong]

Yeah, it's only at least 3 feet of fish, he doesn't list some sizes, so being generous it's only 36" of fish, some which should not be housed together

Why are you using 36" of fish? What does that have to do with anything? That's just one of those really stupid so-called rules of thumb that were invented by LFS employees ages ago to confuse new hobbyists. It's the same as saying watts per gallon, another idiotic rule of thumb.

The length of the fish is unimportant. It's the mass that counts. His 3" sohal tang has ten times as much mass as his 1" blue tang. As an example of the idiocy of talking about 36" of fish in his tank, just think of the problem he would have if he had one 36" long fish in his tank. It would have hundreds of times more mass than all of his present fish.

Whether his fish should be housed together or not is not contributing to his problem of high nitrate, which is the question he posed. Obviously his tank is not large enough for the sailfin tangs or the sohal tang. At the present time they all seem to be getting along but that may not last once they start getting larger. Unfortunately his tank is only 5' long. That's a little short for tangs but the fairly large size of his tank is enough to permit him to keep a few tangs provided they're not really large tangs. He might be able to keep the Zebrasoma spp. tangs and maybe one of the blue tangs. He can work on that later on. Right now he's trying to work on his high nitrate, which is caused because his system is a nitrate factory.

He has more than enough nitrification capabilities (oxic environment) and not enough denitrification capabilities (anoxic environment). A deep sand bed would provide a lot of denitrification. He could also help matters by adding some more live rock because deep inside the live rock is where denitrification takes place. His present sand bed is too shallow to provide denitrification because it doesn't have any anoxic zones.

A really good protein skimmer can also solve nitrate problems whether you have a sand bed or not because it removes organics before they have a chance to mineralize.

[Parrothead]

Ninong,

I agree with you 100% on the sand bed, but back a couple years ago, you were one of the first to point out to me the size tank needed to house 1 or 2 tangs, not a dozen. your recommendation was if I remember correctly was one tang maybe 2 in a 6 foot tank.

I agree with the sand bed and that he needs to address the nitrate issue first, I told him he needed to lighten up on his feedings abit, maybe I'm wrong there, and increase his water change regimen, all woulld help, in addition to your recommendations on the sand bed, skimmer and more live rock.

[tbalankura]

Thank you for directing the topic back to my problem Ninong, it is the Nitrates that needs immediate attention. I will ordered a larger tank for the tangs but it will take sometime to setup (I'm ordering a new FOWLR tank that would soon arrive) .... but i'm not so sure if the fish colors would drop or not without the corals and if they would be as happy as before living with plain rocks.

I used the sand bed calculator on one of the website and found out I had to add another 220 lbs of aragonite sand to get a 3"-4" sand bed ... (and the price here in Bangkok is $60-$70 for a 20 Lbs bag ... thats some 6-700 i gotta spare ....without shipping ... crazy expensive)

To update those who might have interest, I've changed 75% of my water as mentioned a day ago and took out the Grape Caulerpa (I should have taken it out lttle by little (make changes slow) but it got pretty messy so I had to take out the whole lot ... sigh) .... However, my refu is incredibly clean now with lots of space for the remaining Chaeto to grow. I've added some more LR to create the anoxic environment Ninong mentioned. My Nitrates did go down but it's too early to tell ... I will check in a few days and post again. I had also set my skimmer to do a very wet skim ... trying to remove as much organics as possible as recommended.

I realized how important it is to clean my skimmer daily ... i thought a 2-3 day cleaning basis was sufficient but cleaning it daily makes a big ... big difference.

Every posts here means well and I really appreciate everyone comments. The more conflicts and differences in thoughts really makes this reading interesting and educating. I'm learning so much!

Thanks again,

Nick

[gregony]

Tang Navy.

That's pretty funny. How can a 15 year old tang only be 2" long? I think you maybe miscalculated the length of your fish. The 1" Blue Tangs? If they're only a month old, maybe. I disregarded the what you said was the length of your fish, because it didn't make a whole lot of sense. You did say you couldn't get rid of them because they came from a tank you had for 15 years.
I agree with Ninong in so much as you need more denitrification, but I don't believe there is anything you can do to your present tank to accomplish this with that bio-load, saving big, frequent water changes. That will be more expensive than more sand in the long run though. In the short term, you could try to get silica sand for your refugium. Don't put it in the display. The silica sand doesn't add buffering, and it may cause a temporary diatom bloom but it will work until you can get more good aragonite sand in your display. I've used silica sand in the past, it looks crappy, but it doesn't add the problems people (who likely have never used it) claim. Just rinse it really well.
For six or seven hundred dollars you could leave the sand bed the way it is and add a denitrification filter. Deltec makes them, as does several other manufacturers. The problem is that they take a while to start working.
I'm surprised you can't find aragonite sand cheaper. I would think being fairly close to India you would be able to get something from there. Is there a trade dispute or nasty tariffs in between Thailand and India? Or is there no aragonite to be found in Asia? I'm not a geologist.

[Parrothead]

Thanks Greg,

Now I'm not the only one thinking he is off base of his tank stocking being directly related to his nitrate problem, but then again Ninong usually comes out on top, That being said, this is my last post in this thread as I don't feel like pissing a mod off and getting in trouble. JMHO

[Steve McKay]

In the short term, you could try to get silica sand for your refugium. Don't put it in the display. The silica sand doesn't add buffering, and it may cause a temporary diatom bloom but it will work until you can get more good aragonite sand in your display. I've used silica sand in the past, it looks crappy, but it doesn't add the problems people (who likely have never used it) claim. Just rinse it really well.

IMO I would not use silica sand,at this point in time you don't need more problems.I would put aragonite sand in your fuge if you go that route.As Gregony pointed out it would be cheaper than filling your display tank.But I would highly recommend at least a 4" DSB in your display tank.I have a 5" DSB in my display tank.

[Ninong]

Ninong,

I agree with you 100% on the sand bed, but back a couple years ago, you were one of the first to point out to me the size tank needed to house 1 or 2 tangs, not a dozen. your recommendation was if I remember correctly was one tang maybe 2 in a 6 foot tank.

My point is that his present fish load is not responsible for his high nitrate problem. His tangs are all very small.

My personal opinion on tangs is that my little 120-gal tank was too small for even a single tang and that's why I never tried one. I did try a tiny 2.5" foxface rabbitfish on the recommendation of quite a few people who were keeping them in tanks smaller than mine. I loved that fish. it was my first fish, which is why I named it Primus. It was happy in my tank for the first 18 months or so. After that it was obvious that my tank was too small for it. It grew from 2.5" to about 5" in 18 months and it was at least 7" long when I gave it away to someone with a 300-gal tank three years after I first got it.

My personal opinion is that a good minimum size tank for any tang would be a 6' long, 135-gal tank. A good minimum size for two or three tangs would be a 180-gal tank. Many of the larger tangs require tanks of at least 300 gallons. Some really need 500-gal tanks.