Am I reintroducing Nitrate and Phosphate back to the tank by feeding CAULERPA?

[Parrothead]

Sorry if your tank looks dirty ... hope your fish and other stuff are happy in there


We'll start there

All I was trying to point out is this:

I have never seen a tank that has been up for over a year, that did not have at least some coraline algae growing some where, also I've never seen a tank that had such a pristine sand bed after a year either, now if his tank cleaning abilities allow such pristine conditions, I apologize, but personally I don't buy it. JMHO. Take it how you want. I'll leave this thread alone. Later...................

[Ninong]

Dear Parrothead ... thanks to you too for your concern.
After some 15 - 16 years falling in love with marine aquariums and diving, I think I know the difference b/w ammonia nitrites and nitrates.

Okay, he clearly knows the difference between nitrite and nitrate, so that's not a problem in this thread.

My tank is about a year old and I spend my evenings cleaning them everyday .... its how I relax from work. Too bad I dont have the pics of how clean my refu is ... you'll be surprised.

His tank is about a year old and he enjoys keeping it very clean. So that's why there is no coralline algae anywhere on the glass walls of the tank.

The fish in the pictures are somewhat larger than its actual size, especially the close up ones. My corals seem kind of big too haha ...

My eyesight isn't good enough to say one way or the other exactly what the size of his fish are but I would be inclined to believe that they are close to the sizes he first posted. Photography can be tricky, especially when we're talking about marine photography.

If his tank is 60 inches, that would put those blue tangs that are supposedly 1" at about 4" based on his pics. Can you seriously tell me based on his pictures that you could line up 60 of those blue tangs and in a straight line, connect the left and right side of the tank, If someone wants help they need to be completely honest....

His tank is clearly 60" x 30" x 24". That much is obvious from the pictures he posted. I can't tell exactly how large his fish are but I don't think they are nearly as large as you seem to think they are.

His tank is clearly not "brand new" as you seem to think. You can tell that just by looking at the established redox discontinuity layer at the bottom of the sand bed in some parts of the sand bed that appear to be a little deeper than just one inch. Or maybe I'm just seeing the stand? It's hard for me to tell right now because I'm using some cheapy, temporary Wal-Mart reading glasses because I don't have new glasses yet. In any case, his sand bed is obviously at least several months old looking at it through the front glass.

Because it's a shallow sand bed, he probably cleans the surface on a regular basis. That's something that is not recommended for a deep (3" or more) sand bed but it's quite common with hobbyists who appreciate a pristine appearance. What many hobbyists who have deep sand beds (more than 3") will do to prepare for a photo session is to gently disturb just the very top surface of the sand bed just prior to the picture-taking session. Depending on the angle of the shot, even that is often unnecessary.

And it is clearly not "brand new" if you look at the coralline algae coverage on the live rocks that is clearly visible in Photo #3 below:

http://www.reefland.com/forum/attach...a-img_0487.jpg

[Parrothead]

Ninong, I did look at the pictures, and have had several other people look, his blue hippo tangs based on other peoples thoughts, are at least 3 - 4 inches, all I'm saying is if you are asking for help be honest, there is a big difference betweeen a 1" fish and a 3 - 4" fish as you pointed out to me yesterday when you talked about fish mass. That's all I'm trying to say, the rest is irrelevant. Also in your knowledge and experience, when have you ever ran across a 3 year old tank per his post that had nitrites through the roof, his exact words

[Ninong]

I don't think his hippo tangs are 3-4" long. At least they don't look that big to me.

[Parrothead]

Ninong,

Look at pic 3, open it, click on it, then click on it again, should blow it up, look at the hippo tang directly above the fox face, and to the left of the sohal, both those fish are supposed to be much larger than an inch.

[Parrothead]

My night to feed the munchkins, I'll check back later or in the morning

[Ninong]

You can't use Photo #3 to judge the sizes of any of the fish because it's a close-up. All of the fish look much larger than they really are and some of them that are closer to the front look even larger relative to the other fish that are not as close to the lens.

If you want to judge the relative sizes of the fishes in his tank you have to look at Photo #1. It is clear from Photo #1 that his sohal tang is at least twice as long as his hippo tangs. And his foxface rabbitfish is clearly larger than his hippos.

[Steve McKay]

And that clam is 1/2",no go.

[Parrothead]

You can't use Photo #3 to judge the sizes of any of the fish because it's a close-up. All of the fish look much larger than they really are and some of them that are closer to the front look even larger relative to the other fish that are not as close to the lens.

If you want to judge the relative sizes of the fishes in his tank you have to look at Photo #1. It is clear from Photo #1 that his sohal tang is at least twice as long as his hippo tangs. And his foxface rabbitfish is clearly larger than his hippos.

Ok, looking at pic 1, the foxfacx and the hippo tang are the same size, so if the hippo tangs are actually the 1" claimed that would make the clown(center tank above the green bubble what 1/4" at best. Come on, End of story, You are right George, the lack of a sand bed is the problem, never said it wasn't.

One last question, if he adds the sand as you recommended, 1/2 inch, wait, 1/2 inch wait, how is this gonna lower the nitrates faster than an overloaded tank is gonna produce them, fish grow, fish deficate more. I'm done here

[Ninong]

Ok, looking at pic 1, the foxfacx and the hippo tang are the same size, so if the hippo tangs are actually the 1" claimed that would make the clown(center tank above the green bubble what 1/4" at best. Come on, End of story, You are right George, the lack of a sand bed is the problem, never said it wasn't.

One last question, if he adds the sand as you recommended, 1/2 inch, wait, 1/2 inch wait, how is this gonna lower the nitrates faster than an overloaded tank is gonna produce them, fish grow, fish deficate more. I'm done here

I will ask Gene to take a look at the photos. My eyesight isn't good at all right now but I don't believe his blue tangs are 3-4" long.

To answer your last question, a deeper sand bed (at least 3") would provide additional biological filtration to his system. It would be especially helpful in increasing the denitrification capacity of the tank because it would provide zones of low-to-no oxygen at the bottom of the sand bed.

The best way to add new sand to an existing sand bed in an established tank is to add it in 1/2" layers at a time allowing one to two weeks between additions. I don't think fish defecation changes this recommendation in any way.

[Parrothead]

Ninong, I never disputed the additional sand bed being a benefit, all I was saying is his fish are way bigger than posted, have Gene look, I believe he wil feel the same, but for that sand bed to become the depth that you are recommending and again I agree with you 100%, we are looking at a 4 - 8 week window based on your advice, at his current nitrate level and actual fish size (to be determined) he needs to be doing some heavy water changes in the meantime, would you not agree to that. I'm looking at preserving the corals, how long can they with stand a sudden and continued surge in nitrates??? Looks to me like he has some delicate stuff in there. I'll catch up with you tomorrow after you talk to Gene. Have a good night my friend

[Doodaa]

pristine cleaning of a well established tank...

I'm actually interested in the title subject. Growing algae for nutrient export, then feeding the fish with that same algae. Is it better to buy dried packaged algae than to do this? Seems fresh would be better to me and that packaged may or may not have additional undesired chemicals included. Someone convince me otherwise that using refugium algae to feed your herbivores is a bad idea.

[Ninong]

Feeding refugium algae is always a good idea if it is the right algae, such as Gracilaria. I don't think Caulerpa is a good algae to feed your fish or to use in your refugium for reasons I stated previously in this thread.

Chaetomorpha is a popular algae to use for nutrient export. It's fast-growing and doesn't present the problems associated with some other algae. Perhaps you could keep both Chaetomorpha and Gracilaria in your refugium in separate sections? You could feed the Gracilaria to your fish and discard the pruned chaeto.

I don't think there are any chemicals in Ocean Nutrition's seaweed products. I have found them to be very good. I have never used supermarket nori but I believe some of the plain nori is okay to use and very cheap if you get it from oriental markets.

[cdearing]

Are you sure that you want to do such a large water change all at once? Everything I have read says that it is better for your tank to do smaller, more frequent water changes than to do one large one. 75% might send everything in your tank into a state of shock. I'd say 5 - 10% every week to once a month should be sufficient and if you need to bump it up a little, do 25% once a week but by no means would I do a 75% water change unless you were trying to divert a total catastrophe. You could possibly make one by doing this. JMHO
Cyn

[zhenya]

Ninong, I never disputed the additional sand bed being a benefit, all I was saying is his fish are way bigger than posted, have Gene look, I believe he wil feel the same, but for that sand bed to become the depth that you are recommending and again I agree with you 100%, we are looking at a 4 - 8 week window based on your advice, at his current nitrate level and actual fish size (to be determined) he needs to be doing some heavy water changes in the meantime, would you not agree to that. I'm looking at preserving the corals, how long can they with stand a sudden and continued surge in nitrates??? Looks to me like he has some delicate stuff in there. I'll catch up with you tomorrow after you talk to Gene. Have a good night my friend

Look guys, I don't think we should be bashing a member here and calling him basically a liar. That's not the way to help someone, last time I checked.
To be perfectly honest, the fish in the pictures do look larger than stated in the owner's post. Having said that, I wouldn't dream of putting a number of inches on any of them without looking directly at the aquarium in person. Yes, that Sohal tang is much larger than three inches, however, it is hard to tell sometimes true size of the fish from the images. It does not matter what type of fish in the aquarium, what matters is that it is simply too many of them in there. I am not looking at the reefkeeping ethics at this time, person needs to be helped with the problem first and I think Ninong has provided so far the most usefull advice to help with the problem. Let's step back a notch and see if we can help tbalankura "right the ship" so to speak.

I totally understand his situation having fish from another tank and no one wanting them, he said he's working on setting up larger tank for them and hopefully he can achieve this fast enough. I can't allow myself to presume that it is easy to do somewhere, when it is so hard to do in this country.Setting up a large tank, I mean. It is so costly here and I can imagine this is much more somewhere else.

As far as tank being spotless, you need to go visit some other tanks from Asia to see pristine conditions of them even after few years of being in operation. People pride themselves there for having tanks extremely clean looking, that takes hard work and daily maintanance I believe.

Are you sure that you want to do such a large water change all at once? Everything I have read says that it is better for your tank to do smaller, more frequent water changes than to do one large one. 75% might send everything in your tank into a state of shock. I'd say 5 - 10% every week to once a month should be sufficient and if you need to bump it up a little, do 25% once a week but by no means would I do a 75% water change unless you were trying to divert a total catastrophe. You could possibly make one by doing this. JMHO

Cynthia, I agree with you on the size of water changes, and 75% at one time wouldn't be too bad if you had fish only aquarium. However, with the corals in there I would keep doing 10-15% exchanges weekly untill NO3 levels would fall to less than 20ppm.

[Parrothead]

zhenya,

I was not trying to call the man a liar, and I do agree with ninong about the sand bed, but based on ninongs advice it will take 4 - 8 weeks to get the sandbed up to the 3", and then, I'm guessing here probably several more weeks before it really, really kicks in, in the mean time, as I stated way back on page 1, he needs to start doing some water changes, the tank owner is the one that indicated he was going to do a 75% change, I agree with you and cdearing that is way to much, weekly 20% changes would be best to get the nitrates down to a healthy level, and at the same time be working on his sand bed.

I'm not sure with the current load and feeding habits if it will come down much or for that fact without weekly water changes till he gets or finds a new home for some of those fish that it will stay down. The load is a big part of the problem....

[zhenya]

I would not argue with you on the real problem with this particular tank. Heck, the owner himself knows he has too many fish for the size of the tank, it needs to be resolved soon enough.

[tbalankura]

Wow ... didn't think my approximation on the fish size would be an issue in my CAULERPA discussion here. Parrot head you can feel free to come with a ruler and do the measurements if you take it that serious... i'm sorry if my approximation was off base, at least i was honest enough to show you the pictures. If I wanted to lie i wouldn't show it to you would I? (Why would i wanna lie anyways ... its my tank afterall)

Thanks Ninong and everyone for your support .... Just to respect the great information that you guys had posted regarding the topic ... and make this thread helpful to others without boring pages of irrelevant info ... I'm going to stop posting here unless there's useful posts worth acknowledging. I hope you guys don't mind me being a bit harsh, get really bored of bad attitudes sometimes.

(BTW Ninong I got 60lbs of aragonite today ... going to add them tomorrow .... slowlyyy

[Ninong]

I'm going to stop posting here unless there's useful posts worth acknowledging.

I think maybe it would be a good idea to just close this thread and then you could post any new questions in a new thread. I think that would be the best way to go.

Glad you found some aragonite sand. Just add it gradually so as not to disrupt things too much. Wait at least a week between additions to allow the bacteria and other infauna time to migrate into the new additions.

Good luck!