Am I reintroducing Nitrate and Phosphate back to the tank by feeding CAULERPA?

[tbalankura]

Been searching everywhere for an answer but not much luck. I think Lee stated in an older article somewhere that the CAULERPA traps Nitrate and Phosphate But my question is ... don't they transform these elements to something else as they grow? If not then feeding my tangs with algae (of any type) will be putting these elements back in the tank?

[tbalankura]

A little more info,

I initiall had chaetomorpha in my refu but as I added some grape caulerpa, a month later it took over and the chaeto almost disappeared. following many advices to prune the grapes, i gave a few to the tangs (purple, yellow, sohal, salifin) in my 60"x30"x24" display tank and they love it. Though i noticed this green bubble stuff floating in my refu and the display tank had an algae bloom on the glass surface even i fed the same amount of dried food. So i checked my Nitrates and it was way high. Very curious is it from the grapes i'm feeding? If the grapes are trapped in my refu, are they afterall any good?

Thank you,

Nick

[Parrothead]

If your nitrates are sky high, when did you last do a water change???????????

[tbalankura]

If your nitrates are sky high, when did you last do a water change???????????

I did my usual 20-30% change on a 3 week basis. My tank had no nitrate issues for at least the past six months. Using H2Ocean salt and RO water, i checked the salt mix and no nitrates from that source.

[Parrothead]

cut back on the amount of food you are feeding, calerpa, chaeto etc all feed off nitrates, that's why we use it, maybe you are feeding to much for your bio-filitration to deal with.....JMHO

[tbalankura]

thanks for your kind suggestions, but i have been feeding the dried food this same amount for a year without nitrate issues. Now i'm not so sure if its the caulerpa thats causing the spikes in my readings or was it from other causes. (Really want to know if feeding algae (of any kind) would release nitrates and phosphates back in the tank.

I'm thinking of cleaning out the refu tomorrow and get rid of all the caulerpa thats visible ... leaving just the chaeto. What do you think?

[Parrothead]

are you running an type of bio filter that has like bio-balls, or any type of media in it, filter pads that kind of thing?????????????

[rluix]

I did my usual 20-30% change on a 3 week basis. My tank had no nitrate issues for at least the past six months. Using H2Ocean salt and RO water, i checked the salt mix and no nitrates from that source.

Does that mean you do a water change every 3 weeks? just asking.

[tbalankura]

Does that mean you do a water change every 3 weeks? just asking.

Nope no pads, no bioballs ... just rocks and grapes in the refu.

(Got a new cone skimmer with a bubble plate (made from the aqua excel factory but no brand yet) this week. It skims like a B king but half the price .... to replace my old Skimz (2x applebee 2000L pumps)

So my skimming is much better right now too !

and yes i change water every 3 weeks. (think i read somewhere that larger volume changes is better than smaller and more frequent changes)

[Parrothead]

This might be the issue, myself and several others feel that Live rock or live rock rubble in the fuge does the same as bio balls, meaning it will trap detrius and become a nitrate factory just like bio-balls, I think this might be the problem as you stated this spike is new and recent, it does take time for this to build up, I would recommend removing the rock from the fuge, and let it run for awhile that way and see if you get an improvement.

[tbalankura]

This might be the issue, myself and several others feel that Live rock or live rock rubble in the fuge does the same as bio balls, meaning it will trap detrius and become a nitrate factory just like bio-balls, I think this might be the problem as you stated this spike is new and recent, it does take time for this to build up, I would recommend removing the rock from the fuge, and let it run for awhile that way and see if you get an improvement.

thank you for your help, but an honest questions came across as you said remove the rocks. Wouldn't I be removing the 2 bacterias (for both nitrite and nitrate) out of the system and changing the balance of my bioload?

I happened to be quite tidy with my tank ... i just love cleaning it day and night (should i see a shrink?) ... there's usually no place for detrius to pile up .... but i will reorganize the refu as you suggest and see what happends. ... Anyways so u don;t think nitrates came from feeding the algae?

[Parrothead]

No, I can't see calerpa feeding nitrates back into the system, as I stated calpaer feeds on nitrates, fish poop, nitrate factorys, lack of proper water maintence, high nutrient levels, these things add nitrates to the system....Your answer is in one of those items

[tbalankura]

No, I can't see calerpa feeding nitrates back into the system, as I stated calpaer feeds on nitrates, fish poop, nitrate factorys, lack of proper water maintence, high nutrient levels, these things add nitrates to the system....Your answer is in one of those items

then its totally safe to continue feeding the grapes (or any macro algae) to the tank as long as i could control it not to spread? then why do people keep suggesting we prune and throw away the algae when we can actually feed the fish with it?

[Steve McKay]

Though i noticed this green bubble stuff floating in my refu and the display tank had an algae bloom on the glass surface even i fed the same amount of dried food.

What kind of dried food are you feeding?

[ToddTT]

thanks for your kind suggestions, but i have been feeding the dried food this same amount for a year without nitrate issues. Now i'm not so sure if its the caulerpa thats causing the spikes in my readings or was it from other causes. (Really want to know if feeding algae (of any kind) would release nitrates and phosphates back in the tank.

I'm thinking of cleaning out the refu tomorrow and get rid of all the caulerpa thats visible ... leaving just the chaeto. What do you think?

Whatever you decide to do, do it slowly. Don't for example clean out your refugium completely of the grape algae in one shot, should you decide to get rid of it. Do it over the course of a month or so.

If you are feeding the same dried food for a year, you may also have some nutrition issues that you are not aware of. What fish do you have, and what dried food are you feeding? Have you seen the sticky here regarding nutrition?

How often are you feeding, and how much?

How are you testing your nitrates? Some test kits are much more accurate than others. And some can be downright misleading.

What nitrate reading are you getting? Unless it is off the charts, fish are pretty tolerant of nitrates. Are fish the only inhabitants in your tank?

[Ninong]

Been searching everywhere for an answer but not much luck. I think Lee stated in an older article somewhere that the CAULERPA traps Nitrate and Phosphate But my question is ... don't they transform these elements to something else as they grow? If not then feeding my tangs with algae (of any type) will be putting these elements back in the tank?

Caulerpa uses nitrate and phosphate in the process of growing. When you remove any of this Caulerpa from your system, you are removing a certain amount of nitrate and phosphate and other elements. Just weigh the Caulerpa you removed and that's how much stuff you have removed from the system.

Your fish require nutrients (food) to grow just as algae require nutrients to grow. The fish metabolize about 10% of the mass of the food they eat, using it to drive their muscles and respiration and produce new tissue. Some of it ends up being turned into heat but most of it is expelled as bodily waste. This bodily waste is reused over and over again by other organisms in the system. As a general rule of thumb, you can figure that only about 10% of it is used up at each stage. Even bacteria require nutrients to drive their metabolic processes. The cycle repeats over and over again.

Every time to add any food of any kind (including algae) to your system, you are adding nutrients (food). The food goes in the mouth of the fish (or other animal) and comes out the other end as feces and urine. The ammonia in this waste is converted to nitrite and then to nitrate and then to harmless N2 gas, which escapes from the system and enters the atmosphere, where it constitutes approximately 78% of the air we breathe.

A lot of the feces becomes detritus, which is consumed by lots of animals, large and small and even microscopic, in your tank. Some fish even eat detritus. The cycle keeps repeating itself.

So it really doesn't matter whether you feed algae or anything else to your system, you're adding nutrients. You don't have any choice. You have to feed the system because it's not large enough to be self sustaining.

I initiall had chaetomorpha in my refu but as I added some grape caulerpa, a month later it took over and the chaeto almost disappeared. following many advices to prune the grapes, i gave a few to the tangs...

There are two good reasons to prune Caulerpa algae: 1) To export nutrients from the system, and 2) To prevent the Caulerpa from going sexual.

Most people avoid using Caulerpa for two reasons: 1) It has a tendency to go sexual, and 2) It releases toxins (caulerpins) into the system. It's the caulerpin in the Caulerpa that makes it taste bad to most fish. I guess that doesn't apply to C. racemosa, or at least not when it comes to your tangs and C. racemosa. C. taxifolia, for example, is definitely not eaten by most fish, maybe not even any fish.

Though i noticed this green bubble stuff floating in my refu...

What do you mean by floating green bubble stuff? Are you talking about C. racemosa or something else?

and the display tank had an algae bloom on the glass surface even i fed the same amount of dried food. So i checked my Nitrates and it was way high. Very curious is it from the grapes i'm feeding? If the grapes are trapped in my refu, are they afterall any good?

The algae in your tank is not caused by the C. racemosa in your refugium. It just means your system is out of balance. Your input exceeds your system's nutrient-processing capability. Don't take it out on your fish by reducing their food below what they require for healthy growth. Instead, deal with the excess nitrate by using good protein skimming, etc. If you suspect high phosphate (meaning anything above 0.03 ppm), you might add a ferric oxide hydroxide phosphate-adsorbing media in a mesh bag to your sump.

A properly balanced system will take care of itself and you will be able to add all the food your fish and other animals require without worrying that things will get out of hand. Do you have an aragonite sand bed in your tank? A nice aragonite sand bed, if it is fairly deep, will add a tremendous amount of waste-processing capability to your system. Crushed coral, in my opinion, is not a good substrate for a reef aquarium. Aragonite sand is much better.

thanks for your kind suggestions, but i have been feeding the dried food this same amount for a year without nitrate issues. Now i'm not so sure if its the caulerpa thats causing the spikes in my readings or was it from other causes. (Really want to know if feeding algae (of any kind) would release nitrates and phosphates back in the tank.

No, feeding algae is not the cause of your nitrate spike. You have to feed algae if you have herbivorous fish in your tank. Are the fish eating all of the C. racemosa as soon as you feed it to the tank? It's better to feed smaller amounts more than once a day rather than a large amount just once a day. Fish like tangs naturally feed all day long, not just once a day.

I'm thinking of cleaning out the refu tomorrow and get rid of all the caulerpa thats visible ... leaving just the chaeto. What do you think?

That's up to you. I think chaeto is better for use in a refugium as a means of exporting nutrients than any species of Caulerpa for the reasons I gave earlier.

then its totally safe to continue feeding the grapes (or any macro algae) to the tank as long as i could control it not to spread? then why do people keep suggesting we prune and throw away the algae when we can actually feed the fish with it?

As I stated a little earlier in this post, the reason people prune and remove algae (any algae) from their refugium is to export nutrients. Additionally, people prune Caulerpa in an attempt to prevent it from going sexual. When it goes sexual, it releases spores into the tank and then turns white and dies. This is a big mess.

Good luck!

[tbalankura]

Bingo !!! you guys are the best !!!!!

I've been a big fan of your threads and articles .... all 3 of you (You know who you are) and I have learned so much from reefland. I can't thank you enough.

Just to make it clear on my answer, I thought a list of what i have might help, so here goes:

Tank: Length 60" x Width 24" x Height 30"
Refu: Length 60" x Width 24" x Height 10" divided into 5 sections
(approximate volume in total 1000L without liverock sandbeds etc)

Water source: RO with non detectable Nitrite Nitrate Phosphate
Sand bed: 60lbs of Live Aragonite Sand (making about an inch thick)
Lights: Two Radium 400W 20000K (I change the bulbs every 6 months) turned on 6 hours a day
Refu light: Not sure of bulb but left on all night and grapes grow pretty well
Chiller Hailea 1000a (for water approx 1000L)
Skimmer: Brand new cone with a bubble plate ... claims the capacity for 3000L (So i'm hoping i'm over skimming here) and I clean it daily.

Wave maker: Two Vortech MP40 (very strong currents in my tank) with an additional hidden 1500L pump hidden behind the rock work

Live rock: Cooked for a month before added to the tank with lots of coraline appearance. Total in Display tank 30 medium and small (about the the size of a fist) Refu 10 medium
10 Kilos in bags of activated carbon that I change on a monthly basis
I adjust Cal and KH from time to time with Two Little Fishes C-Balance
Feed the corals time to time with DT's Natural Oyster egg

Fish: too many including:
2 blue tangs 1"
1 Sohal 3"
3 purple tangs 2"
2 yellow tangs 2"
1 sixline
2 salifin
1 foxface 2"
3 clowns
2 File fish
1 Powder blue 2"
1 Mandarin (he came very small and shy but is now very big and likes to show off)
(weird but Very small aggression in my tank and they all are very healthy and friendly to my hands at feeding)

Inverts
1 big pink Bubble tip anemone
1 very small green carpet anemone
1 small annemone for the clown fish
Lots of mushroom of many kinds:
Lots of Zoans of many kinds:
Star polyps
Pumpings
Huge Green bubble coral
Xenia
Daisy
an open brain
an orange plate coral
Puple Acropora
and a brown Monti

(3 crabs i wish i could get them out and 3 aiptasia thats hiding with my daisy ... really dont know how to take them out without disturbing the daisy and mushrooms)


ToddTT ... i'm feeding my fish with variety of flake and sinking pellets from Spectrum Thera, Tetra and other local brands

Ninong as you said, don't starve my fish and make changes slow .... Whew ! what a relief ... many told me to cut on food but with so many fishes I want all of them to be happy. Was a bit worried there.

I did use Rowa's phosphate and Rowa's Nitrate remover in my sump but the results were a dissapointing when I checked the elements level out of the hose which came out about the same as the tank . Gave up on those removes and now back to the basics with Live rocks (many are now suggesting I get rid of all the Macro algae and just use LR but I still like to keep some for the fish)

and yes NiNong, all the tangs jumpp on the C. racemosa as soon as I give it and it goes really fast!! (and i too though it tastes bad)

The bubble greenish thing floating does come from the C. racemosa .... its like an oil sheet covered on the water surface in one of my refu section. (its trapped in there and when i spoon it out, it breaks apart and dissolves in the water (pretty trick eh!)

So in summary, please correct me if I'm wrong, no matter what I feed, nitrates and phosphates are introduced back to the system. However, the nitrate spikes did not come from feeding the very algae i use to filter and its a pretty good food for my tangs (even if C. racemosa tastes bad).

Though I will keep in mind C. racemosa does contain poison and i have to be aware of it going sexual.

Ninong, I think its time for me to clear these guys up and keep just the Chaetos as you mentioned now (poor pods that will go with it )

I will also be changing 75% of my tank water today (with H2Ocean i prepared a few days ago) to get rid of the spike, and i'll carefully check for my nitrate sources.

Oh by the way my parameters (using Salifert test kits)
Phosphate 0.03
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 40 ppm !!!
Ca 390
MG 1300 ppm
KH 8.0

[Steve McKay]

i'm feeding my fish with variety of flake and sinking pellets from Spectrum Thera, Tetra and other local brands

That's the answer I was looking for.All that flake and pellet food is junk,it adds nitrate and phosphate.I know you were using it without problems but that food is also not that nutritious,read the label it has wheat germ,wheat flour and soya lecithin.Fish can't use those ingredients,just think of it this way processed food for humans is not that good we all know this,the flake and pellets are processed food for fish.I did feed some flake and pellets myself until I learned it was junk,then it went into the trash.Get frozen food or live food and your fish will love it.Somewhere in Lee's sticky central in "Saltwater (Fish-Only) Aquariums Forum" is an article about what I'm talking about but I went back and can't find it.Anyway you will be better off with frozen food.

[tbalankura]

That's the answer I was looking for.All that flake and pellet food is junk,it adds nitrate and phosphate.I know you were using it without problems but that food is also not that nutritious,read the label it has wheat germ,wheat flour and soya lecithin.Fish can't use those ingredients,just think of it this way processed food for humans is not that good we all know this,the flake and pellets are processed food for fish.I did feed some flake and pellets myself until I learned it was junk,then it went into the trash.Get frozen food or live food and your fish will love it.Somewhere in Lee's sticky central in "Saltwater (Fish-Only) Aquariums Forum" is an article about what I'm talking about but I went back and can't find it.Anyway you will be better off with frozen food.

Wow !!! That totally goes against all my initial beliefs about feeding. Almost everyone i speak to says frozen food are dirty filled with phosphates and nitrite and nitrates not to mention other contaminated elements. Also many claim they have very little nutritional value. That is frozen brine shrimp and akami shrimp that i could find at the LCFS.

When i first started out, frozen food was my primary food source but I never got the waste levels and elements in control. After I shifted to dried food, i kind of managed the water quality for a while (6 months) until my recent spike in Nitrates.

Hmmm I'm hoping someone could give some additional insights here ... though it may be a bit repetitive to other posts and a bit out of scope on this algae topic.

Appreciate your help, thanks

[Steve McKay]

I don't know what your LFS has but I'm talking about brand name frozen foods like San Francisco and Ocean Nutrition.If you read the ingredients label of lets say mysis shrimp it will say mysis shrimp and possibly water and vitamins.No fillers or wheat products.Think of it like this,what is the next best food for humans after fresh food.Frozen food.Here shortly when people wake up,we'll get some more responses.