Salt mix: what you use now and why you changed?

[Papa Doug]

Wow George. A ton of info to grasp. Thanks for the links. I will read them. Likely had a look at them when published but dont recall much from them, likely as I was happy with my IO mix..

I may just ask Seachem about the borate levels. No I dont use their phosphate remover. I use a bulk product we purchased on our Canadian board. I still like Seachems Reef Advantage and Reef Builder products.

[Ninong]

Hello Bob,

Sorry if we didn't address your original question more directly, so here goes.

Most of the commercial salt mixes on the market today are acceptable. Some are probably best avoided for various reasons, such as the high boron content in Seachem. Some people object to the very high calcium and magnesium content in Oceanic. NSW calcium = 411 ppm, NSW magnesium = 1290 ppm. Oceanic usually tests approximately 550-600 ppm calcium and more than 1600 ppm magnesium. In my opinion, calcium above 500 ppm and magnesium above 1500 ppm are both undesirable.

Some salt mixes contain a dechlorinator and some do not. It's important to know that if you are not using R.O./D.I. water. If you are using regular tapwater, you would need to treat it with sodium thiosulfate, or something similar, to remove the chlorine or chloramine if your salt mix does not already contain a dechlorinator. There are a variety of products on the market that will neutralize the chlorine or chloramine in the tapwater.

I suggest you take at look at this post on another board. That's a reasonable comparison of the various salt brands when it comes to measured calcium, alkalinity and magnesium. I must say that when I used Crystal Seas Bioassay Laboratory Formula salt mix, I measured slightly higher calcium and magnesium than what is shown in that post.

There have been several published test results for the chemical composition of various salt mix products over the past dozen years or so. There are several problems with these reports. For starters, it's highly probable that the manufacturer has changed the formulation of their salt mix since the time of the study if the study was published a decade ago. You have to know if that is so and you probably don't know. Next, some of these studies are less reliable than others. You have to know the qualifications of the person(s) doing the study and the methods they employed. And last, but not least, do not believe numbers reported by the manufacturers themselves. Those are mostly advertising hype and not reliable in the least.

Another good way to decide which salt mix to choose is to read a few thousand posts by other hobbyists telling of their experiences with the various brands. :eek3:

Bob,

I knew there was some other reason why Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley doesn't recommend Oceanic salt and I found it here.

"I do not care for Oceanic salt mix. They seem to not even try to match NSW, having excessive magnesium and calcium, and leaving out borate and strontium. What else do they not try to match? That's what really worries me." -- Randy Holmes-Farley, Aug. 16, 2005.

[Ninong]

I may just ask Seachem about the borate levels.

Their borate levels are still high but not as high as they once were. Right now they're 16 ppm (more than 3x NSW) and they have defended that position in their sponsor's forum on Reef Central. Some people do not think their explanation makes much sense but that's up to the customer to decide. I guess. Caveat emptor!

I suggest you read Randy's articles on the effects of boron in the reef aquarium and his discussion of Seachem's borate alkalinity test. That will give you a very good understanding of what Seachem is up to and why Randy thinks it's a bad approach. Think of all the people who buy Seachem's salt and then use some other manufacturer's alkalinity test kit. Wow! Their tests results will be way off because of all that borate alkalinity included in the total alkalinity, and the poor customer will believe his alkalinity is higher than it actually is. Seachem is the only manufacturer who found it necessary to produce a special alkalinity test kit just for their salt mix.

[Ninong]

Doug,

When you read Randy's article about boron in the reef aquarium, keep in mind that he wrote that in 2002. Back then Seachem's borate was more than 11x NSW! Check it out in Bingman's 1999 study.

Today their boron is only 16 ppm (3x NSW), or, as they like to put it: two to three times depending on how you like to mix your saltwater. In other words, if you insist on making your saltwater at natural salinity of 35 ppt, then your borate will indeed be more than 3x NSW but if you make it at a lowered salinity, then it might be only double NSW levels.

Randy's 2002 article mentions that 28 ppm boron is toxic to something or other and, believe it or not, Seachem is now quoting that in defense of their lowered boron of only 16 ppm -- they quote the 28 ppm that Randy wrote about as proof that their salt mix is now perfectly safe. Randy's position is that boron should be not too low and not too high but just right, which would be 4.4 ppm according to Randy.

P.S. -- Seachem says that they include all of that extra boron to maintain high alkalinity, stabilize pH and aid in calcification. According to Randy, there is no evidence at all that increased boron will improve calcification. In fact, according to Randy, there is only evidence that both lowered boron and elevated boron will intefere with calcification. I know that excess strontium will definitely impede calcification, in both corals and humans! Excess strontium in the blood causes deformed bones in children.

I think this all boils down to don't try to improve on Mother Nature unless you know what you're doing. Try to keep it natural.

[Chameleon Bob]

Sorry for not replying to the replys on this topic, but after catching up my question was answered and beyond. I never knew that the binders would of been a problem in mixes. Thanks everyone for the info I'll definitley be using Reef Crystals for now on, but my LFS is trying to turn me on to D-D H2Ocean Magnesium Pro+ PLUS Salt Mix?? Whats the word on this?

[Ninong]

I never knew that the binders would of been a problem in mixes.

I doubt that it makes much difference one way or the other.

Thanks everyone for the info I'll definitley be using Reef Crystals for now on, but my LFS is trying to turn me on to D-D H2Ocean Magnesium Pro+ PLUS Salt Mix?? Whats the word on this?

First, remember that the job of an LFS employee is to sell stuff. Whatever they stock is good for you and whatever they don't stock, you don't need. Sometimes the stuff they want to sell you is something you should consider purchasing. Sometimes.

Now, as far as D-D's H2Ocean Magnesium Pro+ PLUS Salt Mix, I don't know anything about it so I looked it up on their website. They don't even show that exact name. Maybe that's a new name change?

Salt

H2Ocean Pro+ is a pro formula aquarium salt - produced by a solar evaporative process which produces a totally natural base salt where all of the main and trace elements are in complete balance as nature intended.

The pure natural salt is then specially enhanced for aquarium use by elevating specific elements that over time become depleted, such as calcium and magnesium which are used by corals and coralline algae for growth.

The formulation for H2Ocean+ salt has been developed by D-D following many months of testing and evaluation. The salt is designed to dissolve quickly and easily and to have a specific chemistry which in our opinion is the optimum formulation to maintain a healthy reef and allow regular water changes whilst maintaining a natural balance.

Its natural origin ensures that the salt contains all 70 main and trace elements in the correct proportions mixed to a homogeneous blend by nature.

I'm not a fan of any salt mix produced by solar evaporation. I'm not a fan of any salt mix that goes overboard in boosting either calcium or magnesium. It's perfectly fine if all they're talking about is slighting higher than NSW calcium or magnesium but certainly not as high as one particular salt mix that routinely tests at 550-600 ppm Ca and 1650+ ppm Mg. I don't like that idea at all.

Apparently D-D's salt mix is supposed to have extra Mg. How much extra? Don't forget that all of these major elements have to be kept in harmony. You can't go around boosting one without messing up the others. This is especially important with calcium and magnesium. And anything you do will affect the alkalinity and pH. Then you have to figure out a way to stabilize those, too.

So going crazy is not a good idea, in my opinion. Maybe they didn't go crazy? We would have to check it out to see if we can find an experienced reefkeeper who's using it.

In any case, I doubt that I would be interested in trying it because of the solar evaporation part. And I certainly question the accuracy of this statement: "Its natural origin ensures that the salt contains all 70 main and trace elements in the correct proportions mixed to a homogeneous blend by nature." I might have more to say about that later after I check it out some more.

[Chameleon Bob]

Thanks for the info Ninong your a salt mix wiz kid

[Ninong]

Bob,

I did a little searching on that other board for comments about D-D's H2Ocean salt mix for you. Apparently the guys who use it are satisfied with it. The only negative comment, if you can call it that, is that it leaves a slight residue in the mixing container that will turn your cloth brownish when you wipe it out. Well, that's almost certainly not an issue. Most of these comments were from 2009, so I don't know if this stuff with Magnesium Pro+ in the brand name is a new formulation or just new branding. I suspect that it's nothing more than new branding. The test results that I saw from three different hobbyists placed calcium, magnesium and alkalinity all within good ranges and nothing really elevated. Typically it was 10 dKH alk, 450 ppm Ca and 1350 ppm Mg at 1.025 SG.

Anyway, if you choose to try this salt mix, just remember that it's coming from the U.K., so it may settle a little in transit. Don't forget to mix the dry salt mix thoroughly before using it. I started doing that with my salt mix after I read something that Dr. Randy Holmes-Farley said. He said that the various particles are a different size and a different density. Magnesium chloride hexahydrate, for example, is only 72% as dense as sodium chloride. The denser ones move down and the lighter ones move up when there is vibration that can cause movement.

According to one of the salt manufacturers, shaking can cause separation and you should not shake your dry salt mix. Actually, I don't know why anyone would try to shake it in the first place but that's what they said. I always kept a few 4.5-gal white plastic empty kitty-litter buckets on hand and I used those when I opened a new box of salt mix. My salt mix came in plastic bags inside boxes. I simply poured the mix from the box into different buckets and then back and forth a couple of times to mix it. And whenever I went to take some to mix up a batch of saltwater, I sort of stirred it a little with a large white plastic spoon just to make sure I wasn't getting just the top stuff. I liked using those empty kitty-litter buckets to mix up my limewater (Kalkwasser).

That's why I take issue with the way that AWT company performed their water tests for their fancy article. They stated that they did not thoroughly mix the salt mix in advance because they don't think that the average hobbyist would bother to do something like that. Then they took just a teeny tiny 7 gram sample of salt mix. Then they prepared only one sample for the Crystal Seas product. Oh, well... I think I already said what I think about that earlier in this thread.

As far as solar evaporation is concerned, we had a very long discussion about Red Sea salt several years ago and I remember Randy saying that he didn't like the way it was made. It's another salt that starts out with solar evaporation. For one thing, when salt evaporates, what is left is not the same as what you had before evaporation because of chemical changes that take place during evaporation. So then they have to adjust that salt to get it back to what it should be. And I wonder how they deal with bird droppings and atmospheric fallout? What if the salt evaporation ponds are close to an industrial area? What if there is an aluminum plant nearby? You would get a lot of nasty fallout from their stacks because their scrubbers are not 100% effective. What if there is an oil refinery nearby? Have you ever seen the water tests performed on surface water off the coast of Southern California? The lead content is sky high.

Anyway, I didn't find any negative comment about D-D's H2Ocean salt and I checked at least half a dozen or more hobbyists who are using it. They were all satisfied with it.

P.S. -- Here's another random thought that I would like to throw in here. There are really very few salt manufacturers around the world. There are many salt vendors but quite a few of those vendors get their salt from the same manufacturer. Marineland, the company that makes Instant Ocean and Reef Crystals, also makes salt for at least two or three other vendors and it comes out of the same plant in Ohio but with different branding. One salt that is sold in the U.S. under a German brand is actually made in Ohio. I have no idea where this D-D H2Ocean salt is made but I don't think England is known for it's salt evaporation ponds, or are they??? If I had to place a bet, I would be willing to bet that the same manufacturer who makes this salt also makes salt for at least one other vendor.

This holds true for a lot of the things that we buy in this hobby. Another example: the same plant near Munich that is owned by Ushio, even though it is called BLV, makes metal halide light bulbs for at least two or three other vendors. Those lamps just have different brands on them. Metal halide light bulbs are made by huge light bulb manufacturing companies. I hope nobody thinks that Giesemann or Hamilton or any of the other vendors actually makes metal halide light bulbs? Or T5 fluorescents either. Those all come from the huge light bulb companies but with different brands on them.

A lot of the cheaper equipment that we buy comes from a variety of different manufacturers in China. It's brought over by a large distributor and sold in the U.S. under their brand name but it comes from different places in China. Even some of the metal halide lamps are coming from China.

[Ninong]

Here's another thing that bugs me about salt mix advertisements: "...salt contains all 70 main and trace elements in the correct proportions." This is a joke! I have never seen a salt yet that didn't contain most of the trace elements, especially the heavy metals, at levels many times natural seawater concentrations.

Have you ever noticed that whenever you see any chemical analysis provided by the manufacturer that the breakdown of the elements they are willing to disclose very closely matches NSW concentrations? Yet whenever that same salt is tested by an independent laboratory the results are very different? Happens all the time.

And why do they all brag about "70 main and trace elements?" All of the salt mixes have trace elements at concentrations much, much higher than NSW concentrations because they're present as impurities in the ingredients. It's all marketing hype aimed at new hobbyists.

[Chameleon Bob]

well I got home today and my tank had a diatom bloom like crazy, so my LFS which is also a pretty good friend of mine and I think the oceanic salt contains some silica or something in it to set this off. The salt mix was the only thing I've changed so everything points to the salt. Just a bit of a ca-wink-a-dink that when I change mixes I get a bloom. I threw the last bit out just now and ordered a box of reef crystals. This bloom is enough for me to never change mixes again

[Steve McKay]

well I got home today and my tank had a diatom bloom like crazy, so my LFS which is also a pretty good friend of mine and I think the oceanic salt contains some silica or something in it to set this off. The salt mix was the only thing I've changed so everything points to the salt. Just a bit of a ca-wink-a-dink that when I change mixes I get a bloom. I threw the last bit out just now and ordered a box of reef crystals. This bloom is enough for me to never change mixes again

This may be a far out thought but could it possibly be the Conch eggs hatching?

[Chameleon Bob]

I don't know steve that's a good question, nothing is showing up on water tests. But I added chemi-pure elite after I tested everything and it's been proally 4 hours and the bloom is starting disappear so there wasn't much in the water. Do hatchings do that?

[Steve McKay]

I don't know steve that's a good question, nothing is showing up on water tests. But I added chemi-pure elite after I tested everything and it's been proally 4 hours and the bloom is starting disappear so there wasn't much in the water. Do hatchings do that?

I haven't the slightest clue, I've never experienced anything like that. It was just a thought, I hope the chemi-pure elite doesn't affect anything especially the conch eggs or larvae.

[Ninong]

Just for the record, I revised my Post #15 in this thread as follows:

Ask them sometime exactly what they mean by "extra trace elements." Which "trace" elements are they talking about? And I don't know of any manufacturer who is adding "vitamins" to their salt mix. Does anyone have a link that we can follow online to a manufacturer's claim of including "vitamins" in their salt mix? Which vitamins? Where is the scientific evidence that these "vitamins" are beneficial to marine animals?

P.S. -- I forgot that Reef Crystals adds "extra vitamins" to their salt mix:

Reef Crystals contains essential ocean reef elements in concentrations greater than those found in natural sea water: - Extra Calcium to help ensure the growth of large and small polyp stony corals as well as coralline algae; - Extra Trace Elements to provide an additional measure of vital nutrients; - Extra Vitamins to ensure vigorous growth and survival of corals, anemones and other invertebrates in a captive environment; - Metal Detoxifier - to neutralize traces of heavy metal often present in domestic water supplies.

Just for the record, I have used and highly recommend using Selcon as a food additive, mainly for the Omega-3 HUFA, which has proven benefits. The vitamin B12 and vitamin C may be beneficial and certainly won't do any harm; however, most studies showing beneficial effects of these vitamins were done on humans. I wonder what "extra vitamins" are added to Reef Crystals and why? That's what I hate about virtually all the manufacturers. They never want to tell you what's in their products. By saying "extra vitamins," they imply that it's common practice to add vitamins to salt mixes and they're just adding "extra" vitamins, over and above the standard dose of vitamins that you could expect in other products. That's all a bunch of nonsense!!! I would love to know exactly which "vitamins" they're talking about and where they found the scientific studies to back up their claim that "extra vitamins" have to be added to the water column "to ensure vigorous growth and survival of corals, anemones and other invertebrates."

It could be that when they say "vitamins," they don't mean Vitamin-C or Vitamin-K or what we normally think of as vitamins that have been proven beneficial to humans. It would help if they listed these "extra vitamins." That would be like asking them to identify their metals chelator, which they now call a "Metal Detoxifer."

[Ninong]

Instant Ocean did contain EDTA in the past:

I finally found something I was looking for and I'm going to add it to this thread just for the record because Aquarium Systems, makers of Instant Ocean salt mix, have claimed in their printed ads published in hobby magazines that Instant Ocean does not contain EDTA and has never contained EDTA.

It is amazing to me that they would deny this in print when their very own official manual clearly lists EDTA as an ingredient in Instant Ocean salt mix at one time. It is probably true that Instant Ocean no longer contains EDTA since it is not intended for use in reef aquariums, just marine aquariums. Their premium salt mix, Reef Crystals, is intended for use in reef aquariums and it does still contain a "Metal Detoxifer." They have refused to identify this mysterious "Metal Detoxifer," calling that a proprietary secret. I think it's probably EDTA but they won't say one way or the other.

It's true that many hobbyists do use Instant Ocean salt mix successfully in their reef aquariums but that's not what it's intended for according to the manufacturer. It's designed for use in marine aquariums (fish-only and FOWLR), not reef aquariums. Aquarium Systems says they add "extra vitamins" and a "Metal Detoxifer" to their reef salt, Reef Crystals. That's the product that Aquarium Systems says you should be using in your reef aquarium, not Instant Ocean.

Anyway, Instant Ocean salt mix did indeed contain EDTA back when the attached official Instant Ocean salt manual was printed in 1976, so it is incorrect for Aquarium Systems to now claim that it never contained EDTA.

Here's another observation of mine concerning that Instant Ocean manual. In Table 2, "Use of Instant Ocean synthetic sea salts to prepare salt water of a definite salinity," they indicate that a salinity of 34 ppt equals full-strength natural seawater. That's not the standard accepted in all of the scientific community. The recognized standard is 35 ppt, not 34 ppt. Note that when that manual was published, you had to use 38.0 grams of Instant Ocean salt mix to prepare 1 liter of salt water at 34 ppt salinity or 40.1 grams to prepare 1 liter of salt water at 35 ppt salinity. One liter of natural seawater contains 35 grams of salts. In an ideal world, you would add 35 grams of salts to 965 grams/milliliters of purified water to end up with one liter of seawater. If you did that and then found that your liter of artificial seawater did not register 35 ppt salinity, then you would add additional salt mix. If, for example, you had to add 7 grams of salt mix in order to get your liter of artificial seawater up to 35 ppt salinity, then that means that you had 7 grams of moisture in your 35 grams of salt mix.

Anyway, as I pointed out earlier in my comments on that AWT article, you don't add 35 grams of salt mix to 1000 grams (one liter) of R.O./D.I. water to prepare a liter of synthetic seawater. You add 35 grams of salt mix to 965 grams/ml of purified water. That may have been a typo on their part. I certainly hope they didn't mean what they actually wrote in their article.