First Setup

[bdrogers2000]

Hello everyone!

I have wanted a Marine Aquarium for years, and after seeing one at a friends house over the weekend I decided to take the plunge. I found a great deal on a 200 gallon tank and stand, but now I am a little overwhelmed by the equipment that I need to purchase.

I don't know which brands I should be looking at for protein skimmers, mechanical filters, heaters, and powerheads. Please let me know if you have any suggestions.

[wstadnick]

First step would be deciding on what you want your tank to be, be it :

Fowlr - Fish only with live rock
FO - Fish only with no live rock
Reeftank

Depending on which one you go with, will determine what type of equipment you'll need, and who would most likely be given you guidance

Also a good post to read up on is :

Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

It's where i learned everything on how to set up my tank.

[bdrogers2000]

Thanks for the quick reply!

I am thinking reef tank. I am unlikely to upgarade this tank any time in the near future so I would like to go all out.

I forgot to mention that the tank is drilled and is being sold with the stand, sump, and return pump.

Here are pictures from the seller. I will try to get some better ones up after I pick the tank up this weekend.

[bdrogers2000]

I am also trying to decide on what types of fish that I will want to add in the long run. I orginally wanted a saltwater tank becuase of the clownfish, but after reading a book on tank setup and species selection the author recommended lionfish for a beginer tank and I love that idea too.

I am wondering if I can put some sort of partition on the tank to reserve 40-50 gallons for the smaller more docile fish and allow the larger more agressive variety to roam around the rest.

Of course my concern is that the proximity of the more agressive species will stress the smaller ones, even though they will not come in contact. I just don't know if this idea is even workable, let alone suggested for a beginer to attempt.

Another point in the pro collumn if a partition is feasible is that it will allow me to place anemones in the portion of the tank with the clownfish and still have a wider variety of corals in the larger portion of the tank with the predators.

I am completly crazy and living in a dream world, or is my dream tank possible?

[wstadnick]

Yeah, the clown fish is also what got me hooked. I went the fowlr way, as i didn't have the cash for the lighting and equipment required to run a reed system.

I'd say decided first on what you'll want in the tank, if your gonna want corals, that kinda stuff, and then from them decide on the fish, as some are not coral / reef friendly.

I've never seen anyone partition the tank, so i'm not sure on that exactly, but thinkin about it, it may limit the length of the tank, and the larger fish need the swimming space that the 200 g would give.

[Ninong]

Hi bdrogers2000,

I am also trying to decide on what types of fish that I will want to add in the long run. I orginally wanted a saltwater tank becuase of the clownfish, but after reading a book on tank setup and species selection the author recommended lionfish for a beginer tank and I love that idea too.

A lionfish would only be suitable for what we call a "predator tank." That's a certain type of fish-only tank.

I am wondering if I can put some sort of partition on the tank to reserve 40-50 gallons for the smaller more docile fish and allow the larger more agressive variety to roam around the rest.

No, that idea never works out well at all in real life. In fact, it's a terrible idea.

Of course my concern is that the proximity of the more agressive species will stress the smaller ones, even though they will not come in contact. I just don't know if this idea is even workable, let alone suggested for a beginer to attempt.

Your first instinct is correct -- it's not workable. It only happens after some hobbyist adds a lionfish to his tank only to discover that the other fish are slowing disappearing. Then he doesn't want to take the lionfish back, so he sets up a partition in the tank to separate the lionfish from the other fish.

Remember, a lionfish can and will eat almost any other fish that fits into it's very large mouth. The bigger it gets, the bigger the fish it will be able to eat.

Another point in the pro collumn if a partition is feasible is that it will allow me to place anemones in the portion of the tank with the clownfish and still have a wider variety of corals in the larger portion of the tank with the predators.

I am completly crazy and living in a dream world, or is my dream tank possible?

No, it is not possible to have half of the tank set up as a fish-only predator tank and the other half set up as a reef tank. That won't work because those are two entirely different set-ups when it comes to water parameters. You won't be able to maintain the pristine water conditions necessary for the reef tank if the other half of the tank is inhabited by large, messy fish. This is an idea that never works out.

If I were you, I would go with the reef tank idea from the very beginning.

Good luck!



P.S. -- Let us know once you have decided on whether you want a fish-only tank or a reef tank and I will move this thread to either the fish-only forum or the reef forum because you are going to need a lot of advice that is specific to the type of set-up you are going with. As previously mentioned, a reef tank requires more equipment than a fish-only tank and, if it's going to be a reef tank, you have to choose only those fish that are considered "reef-aquarium safe."

[Ninong]

bdrogers2000,

Once you get the tank and all of the equipment, tell us more about it. It looks like it's a 7-ft long tank, right? Is it drilled any place else besides the corner overflow compartments?

Does it come with a light set-up, too?

That stand looks pretty sturdy, was it home-made by the previous owner?

Did the seller say why he's getting out of the hobby?

What happened to everything that used to be in the tank? Was it up and running?

Was this tank used as a fish-only tank or a reef tank? (P.S. -- I'm beginning to think it was never set up.)

We really, really need to know the answers to those last three questions before we can tell you what you will need to do once you get the tank. This could be VERY important.



P.S. -- It looks like that tank is sitting in a commercial building, right? Is that an office or something? Where is the rest of the stuff? Was this thing ever set up? I'm beginning to suspect that it wasn't.

I have a feeling you're probably getting a VERY good deal on this stuff.

[Original Fin]

I'd nix the partition idea, and here's why: As you mentioned, the proximity issues could stress the fish on both sides, but you'd also have issues with water flow and even filtration throughout the tank. Not that it couldn't be overcome with some clever design, but it would be a trial and error process at the expense of your livestock. Better to start out with simpler tried and true methodology for a beginner, and I'd suggest picking just one type of system to start off with. You will soon be overwhelmed with the time and cost of maintenance and husbandry. Later on, if you still want to do two different systems, there are a couple paths you can set yourself up for:

1. Seperate, independant systems. The good thing about this, is that your livestock is completely isolated, so poor water quality and/or disease cannot spread between tanks. The downside is it's twice the maintenance, and twice the equipment you'll have to buy.
2. Two display tanks connected to one shared sump and filtration system. Here you'll only need one of everything (except the actual display tanks and stands), but both systems will have shared exposure to disease, parasites, pathogens, etc...Using a UV sterilizer between tanks may lessen the risk, but to what degree is debateable.

The best advice I can give is to not even think about putting water or any livestock in the tank until you have your long term plan all mapped out and researched. Hasty decisions quickly lead to frustration and disaster in this hobby. Most beginners quickly lose interest after they realize how big of an investment in timeand $$'s it really takes. Or, after their first tank crash. Do overs can take months, years to make up lost ground. A large part of the beginner demographic eventually sells off all of their equipment at big losses.
If you travel alot and don't plan on hiring an aquarium maintenance company, cut your losses now. You won't be able to leave your house for more than 48 hours. There's a bunch of great automation equipment out there, but for most people, it's prohibitively expensive, and still doesn't adress the need of feeding your livestock. Unfortunately, it's no where near simple enough to just ask a friend or neighbor to stop by and throw in a pinch of flakes.
You're already a leg up on most beginners because you've done some research, and you're asking for help in the right places (Reef Forums, not the Local Fish Store). Good luck, and

[bdrogers2000]

Thanks for all the replies!

I think that I got a great deal on it as well. From what I have gathered over mimial emails this was a tank in an office, and the owner is moving to another building and can't bring the tank. I am driving to pick up the tank Saturday (it's 7 hours one way so ALL DAY). I'll ask some questions about it while I insepct the seals and the stand. I think you might be right about it never being set up, but I will try to find out what may have been in there previously.

The ad says that it is 7ft x 2ft x 2ft with dual corner overflows and includes a sump and Iwaki return pump that is not shown in the pictures.

The more I think about it the more I am leaning towards a reef tank with docile to semi aggressive fish species. I will probably go with metal halide lights to support the coral growth.

[Ninong]

I think that I got a great deal on it as well.

I have a feeling you probably did.

From what I have gathered over mimial emails this was a tank in an office, and the owner is moving to another building and can't bring the tank.

Yes, that's what I figured after I looked at the picture a second time.

I am driving to pick up the tank Saturday (it's 7 hours one way so ALL DAY). I'll ask some questions about it while I insepct the seals and the stand. I think you might be right about it never being set up, but I will try to find out what may have been in there previously.

The more I look at it, the more I think it was never set up.

The ad says that it is 7ft x 2ft x 2ft with dual corner overflows and includes a sump and Iwaki return pump that is not shown in the pictures.

That's a standard 210-gallon tank size. It wouldn't surprise me if the Iwaki return pump is still in the box. On the other hand, maybe the guy sold off all of the livestock and live rock that was previously in the tank and somebody cleaned it out real good before he took the pictures. I'm leaning more in favor of the never-set-up theory, especially if there are no lights with the deal -- unless he sold the lights separately.

That tank and stand look like they have never seen saltwater. And I think I see at least one drilled bottom hole that looks like it has never seen a bulkhead fitting yet.

The more I think about it the more I am leaning towards a reef tank with docile to semi aggressive fish species. I will probably go with metal halide lights to support the coral growth.

Lighting will be a very big part of the expense of setting up this system. You have some options available to you, especially since the tank is only 24" tall. This is something you will need to look into before making your final decision.

Some fish that are reef-aquarium safe are aggressive, some are semi-aggressive and some are not aggressive at all. There are hundreds of different choices that are available.

I'm dying to know what you paid and exactly what's included but you can wait and tell us after you get it home if you want.

[Ninong]

If you're not going there until Saturday to pick this thing up, I hope you gave the guy a PayPal deposit or something to lock this deal up just in case somebody tries to beat you to it -- especially if you found it on Craigslist.

[bdrogers2000]

I did make sure that the auction was closed after I contacted the seller

After browsing through pictures today I think I am leaning more towards a soft coral tank. Now i need to research whether they are more difficult to raise than hard corals and what kinds of restrictions I am placing on myself in terms of fish and invertes that I can add later.

[Ninong]

After browsing through pictures today I think I am leaning more towards a soft coral tank. Now i need to research whether they are more difficult to raise than hard corals and what kinds of restrictions I am placing on myself in terms of fish and invertes that I can add later.

Soft corals are easier to keep than hard corals. However, almost everyone who starts out with soft corals will begin adding some hard corals within the first year, or less.

You aren't placing any restrictions on yourself in terms of what fish you can keep or what other inverts you can keep. Should you ever decide to switch to SPS corals (small-polyp stony corals), you may wish to reduce the number of soft corals in your tank. Soft corals do give off some chemicals that are not good for SPS corals but that's not a big deal.

Soft corals, in general, require less intense lighting and not as much water movement as hard corals. You can always add additional water movement later should you decide to go with more SPS corals; however, lighting is not as easy to upgrade without considerable expense. Better to start out with lighting that will work for eaither soft or hard corals.

[Ninong]

There is a lot of information online but I think you should get a good book that covers the basics. I would recommend Robert Fenner's Conscientious Marine Aquarist, Second Edition. It covers the basics and it includes nice coverage of the most common aquarium fishes.

For coverage of corals, I would recommend: Aquarium Corals by Eric Borneman.

There are a lot of other good books around but if you read Fenner's book first, following by Borneman's book, you will have the basics covered. Fenner's book includes information on the common reef aquarium fishes but not a lot of information about corals. His books are more slanted toward fish-only-with-live-rock tanks. Borneman's book is excellent when it comes to corals.

I would suggest you order both of those now so that you will have all of the basics at hand before you start making decisions. It's much better to spend time researching what you want to do in advance rather than as you are doing it.

[Ninong]

I did make sure that the auction was closed after I contacted the seller

Did you pay him the "Buy It Now" price or did he accept something less? Either way, it's a good deal for the 210-gal Oceanic tank, matching oak stand, sump and Iwaki return pump.

It does appear to be in "great shape," as the seller claimed in his listing. He said it has a couple VERY minor scratches. Have him point those out to you. I'm sure they're not anything to be concerned about but ask him to show you what he's talking about anyway.

This appears to be a used set-up but he seems to have had it cleaned up VERY well before offering it for sale. Apparently he has already sold the lights separately. As well as whatever livestock he had in the tank.

Don't forget to ask him if it was previously a reef tank or a fish-only tank. If it was a fish-only tank, ask him if he ever used any copper-based medications in the tank. Probably not, but ask him anyway. This is not a deal breaker, it just means you have to follow certain steps in cleaning the tank to remove any adsorbed copper from the glass.

He still has a 75-gal reef tank for sale but without lights (sold separately) or livestock (sold separately). The 210-gal tank was probably his office tank and the 75-gal tank was probably his home tank. He listed the big tank as a 200-gal but Oceanic calls that their reef-ready 210-gal tank. Or at least they used to. I couldn't even find it on their current website.

Ask him how long he has had the tank, just out of curiosity. Also, does he have the front doors for the stand?

Brings lots of old blankets, etc., with you to use as padding when you stick this tank and stand in your rental truck, or whatever, that you're taking to pick it up. If you rent a few of those professional suction cup things that movers use to move glass tanks or large pieces of glass, you will be VERY glad you did. You can lift it from under the bottom but it's hard on the hands. Either way, you might want to wear gloves.

What sort of top bracing does this tank have? Oceanic has changed so many times over the past 15 years or so that I hate to hazard a guess. They used to use two glass cross braces on this tank but I have no idea what they have been doing for the past six or seven years. I'm not even sure who owns Oceanic Systems anymore. Their ownership has changed so many times over the years that I lost track.

When you set this thing up, it is extremely important that it be perfectly level side to side and front to back.

Good luck!

[bdrogers2000]

Thanks again for all of the advice Ninong.

I ordered both of those books, so hopefully I can digest a good portion of them by the end of next week.

I guess my next steps after getting the tank home will be to decide on lights and a protein skimmer. Of course the lights will be predicated on what I plan to put inside the tank, but I think I am leaning more towards a MH setup. The salesperson at the fish store told me to expect to pay $600+ for the skimmer and roughly $800 for the light fixtures. The store doesn't stock a skimmer that can handle a 200 gallon system but he was very adamant that I would be sorry in the near future if I don't pay at least $600.

[Ninong]

I ordered both of those books, so hopefully I can digest a good portion of them by the end of next week.

Eric's book would be a good way for you to get an idea of all of the different corals and their requirements. However, it's intended for hobbyists who already know something about setting up a reef aquarium. Bob Fenner's book starts at the beginning and covers the equipment basics first. He also covers reef fishes, whereas Eric only covers corals.

There are a whole slew of other good books but those two will get you started. There are also many decent websites with valuable information but you have to know enough to know whether what you are reading makes sense or not.

I guess my next steps after getting the tank home will be to decide on lights and a protein skimmer.

Yes, you can't set it up without lights and a protein skimmer. You will probably want a calcium reactor for a tank of this size but you can wait a few weeks before adding that.

Of course the lights will be predicated on what I plan to put inside the tank, but I think I am leaning more towards a MH setup.

You have to decide first whether you want a complete canopy top or an open top. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Since your tank is 7' long instead of 6' long, there are no standard-size light fixtures. The longest light fixtures are 6'. That's not a serious issue because even a standard 6' fixture will work over a 7' tank, it's just that the 6" on either side of the tank won't be as bright as the rest of the tank.

The salesperson at the fish store told me to expect to pay $600+ for the skimmer and roughly $800 for the light fixtures.

He's probably a little on the low side with those price estimates, especially on the light fixture. I can't imagine lighting this tank for as little as $800 unless you go the DIY route and are handy with carpentry.

Yes, you can find a decent skimmer for under $600 that will work for a 210-gal reef tank but you will almost certainly like the ones that cost more than that. At least that's my problem. I like all of the more expensive ones. Skimmers are way, way overpriced.

This would be my skimmer choice for your size tank, assuming it's going to be an internal (meaning inside the sump) skimmer. This would be my skimmer choice for an external skimmer -- same thing but it goes next to the sump instead of inside it. And it cost a little more. That company makes fantastic skimmers.

The store doesn't stock a skimmer that can handle a 200 gallon system but he was very adamant that I would be sorry in the near future if I don't pay at least $600.

This is true on more than one level. The first thing he said that was true was that the store doesn't stock what you want. Or, to put that another way, you really don't want to pay the prices the store would charge you on equipment unless it's to replace something that just broke that you must have replaced within a couple of hours or you will lose your entire tank.

I would always check the local sources (meaning LFS) first for fish but never for equipment. LFS prices on equipment are almost never competitive with online prices. And the differences can be huge! There are some very good online sources and some online sources that are to be avoided at all costs.

As far as your lighting is concerned, the first thing you have to decide is whether you want a canopy or not. You might even be able to locate a ready-made canopy for a standard size 84"x24" tank. Assuming it's tall enough to accomodate metal halides, that may be the one thing you would want to buy locally. Oceanic did offer canopies for this tank and I believe they offered them in two different heights. Or maybe it was just the taller one for this size. Anyway, they certainly sold this tank with the stand and canopy and with doors on the front of the stand. After looking at the pics of that stand again, I think it may be a stock Oceanic stand. It's hard for me to tell from the pics.

The two main disadvantages of having an open top (meaning no canopy) are that you will have 'light spill' around the tank in the room, which can be very distracting, and that you will have to deal with fish jumping out of the tank and landing on the floor. Both of those issues can be dealt with to a certain extent. With an open top, you can go with one of the many sexy-looking fixtures that suspend above the tank. It can be difficult to use these fixtures in a canopy without taking out most, if not all, of the top of the canopy. This is because most fixtures cannot be enclosed because of heat issues.

This is a nice 6' fixture but it's a little pricey. Aqua-Medic makes some nice 72" fixtures with either three or four 250w HQI DE metal halides plus 4 T5s for actinic supplementation. Those would run about half the price of the Giesemann fixture. They also make some more expensive fixtures. Obviously there are other fixtures around at various prices but that will give you an idea of what to expect. You will not find any 72" fixtures in the $800 price range unless they are junk from China. And they might burn your house down in the middle of the night.

[bdrogers2000]

Would this be an example of something that will burn down my house?


I like the Aqua-Medic rig that you linked, but the only seller I can find says that it is discontinued.

[Ninong]

Would this be an example of something that will burn down my house?

I really don't know. I'm not sure what manufacturer made that fixture. They don't even say in the listing anything about the ballasts other than "ballast included."

I checked that seller's profile and he has 1,079 open auctions on eBay at the moment (43 pages with 25 per page plus 4 items on page 44). He's obviously a large importer. Don't be fooled when you see the pharse "German reflectors" because they use that a lot to describe a type of aluminum or a certain shape, they don't necessarily mean that any part of it came from Germany.

So I can't answer you on that one. I see that most of his auctions have zero bids, including all of his open auctions for that fixture in both the 6' and 4' lengths. It's listed more than once.

Posts on the boards, including a very large board with more than 244,000 members, have convinced me that a company's reputation is a very important part of the equation when buying electrical equipment in this hobby. Too many people have posted of bad experiences with cheapy light fixtures, ranging from cheap materials, sloppy workmanship, ballasts that fail, ignitors that fail, overheating, wiring that fails, lamps (mean bulbs) that fail or that fail to provide good light, and, most important of all, an almost total lack of any sort of warranty support.

I guess I'm just naturally nervous when it comes to buying stuff on eBay that doesn't even carry a brand name.

Again, the bottom line is that I really don't know anything about that fixture other than what I just read in the description, so I really can't offer any sort of objective opinion.

I like the Aqua-Medic rig that you linked, but the only seller I can find says that it is discontinued.

Oops! Sorry. Maybe they aren't making it anymore or maybe it's just out of stock??? I found it on the official Aqua-Medic website. I used an Aqua-Medic fixture over my 120-gal aquarium. It had two 250w HQI DE lamps plus a 25w blue moonlight in the middle. I already had a separate fixture with actinic power compact fluorescents to run with the metal halide fixture.

This is one of those areas where you have to just look around to see what's available today. I would check the major online vendors first before going to either eBay or Amazon. At least that would give you a base to check against as far as available product as well as pricing.

I have had very satisfactory experiences with Custom Aquatic, Marine Depot and Premium Aquatics. That's not to say that I would buy all of the light fixtures they have for sale because I wouldn't. They do offer some cheapy stuff from China that comes in under very American sounding names. CurrentUSA, for example, is just a brand name that an importer sticks on all sorts of equipment that is made in China.

[Ninong]

I'm moving this thread to the Reef Aquariums forum now that you have said you want this to be a reef tank. You might get more suggestions over in that forum.