New to SW -have 2 questions

[tank1970]

Need some advice on two things.
#1 can you cycle a tank to long (with out livestock) looking to create a reef tank.
#2 any advice for water testing kits - efficient but not a million $ :-)

I have been having my Aquarium store testing for me.
Last reading was the following.
After 7 days (live rock, sand and refugium
Nitrite 1ppm
Nitrate 30ppm
PH 7.8
ammonia .50
75gal tank with 15lb live rock
(10 lb of base rock)
Refugium has micro algae (chedo) and 2 lb of live rock rubble
Pump 280 gph
(do not have a fan yet- will get this week end)
Light is off ( florescent compact blue and white)
Light on over refugium

Let me know if I am on the right track - any advice?

like to know if I am on the right track

[okiestranger]

Welcome and good luck your nitrates,nitrites,and ammonia look constant to what mine were when I was cycling but I may be wrong but you ph might be a little low for a reef I think it is between 8.0 to 8.4 I keep mine at around 8.2 and my tank I cycled fishless took around 5 weeks not sure what normal is sorry I'm not to much help but I every new to sw

[tank1970]

All info is good to know for sure

I have been reading a lot on this forum and there is sooooo much to learn.

Did it take 5 weeks with out live rock or with?

[okiestranger]

Sorry about that. With 20 lbs live rock. And 120 lbs live sand.

[tank1970]

So with 20lb of live rock it took 5 weeks for things to level out. Will the ph change as other levels lower?

[okiestranger]

That my friend you maybe want to get with some of the others that are more experienced to answer correctly I have had troubles at first with ph dropping but it seems to have leveled out after the cycling when I started doing 10% water changes every week keep in mind I have only had my tank setup since aug 10th I am very inexperienced with salt water maybe someone with more knowledge will chime in and help you out

[tank1970]

Thanks very much for the info so far - I will be checking levels over the next few days. Has anyone used a refugium to start a tank? Without a sub?

It seems to me to be a good alternative to a sub.

So the filtration will only be refugium,live rock,sand and protein skimmer. Will that be enough?

[tank1970]

just wondering if anyone can tell me if my live rock turning white might be an issue

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Its normal

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

So with 20lb of live rock it took 5 weeks for things to level out. Will the ph change as other levels lower?

I wouldn't worry about the ph until after your tank has cycled. Funky things happen to the water chemistry when cycling. You just have to give mother nature the time she needs to do her thing.

Oh yea. If you only have 15 lbs of rock, you're going to need a lot more. Somewhere along the lines between 1.5 and 2 lbs per gallon.

I use the API test kit but I'm not impressed because it's difficult to read some of the color charts (nitrates between 5ppm and 10ppm look the same color).

[okiestranger]

I agree I am using maybe the same API test you are I don't really like the nitrate test or the ph test the colors are to close to the same I recommend trying a different test I know I will be as soon as this one runs out I use a test probe and the API drip test to check ph.

[tank1970]

Great info thank you so much. So the white on the live rock is normal and is expected - all part of the cycle?

I was going to only add about 4 or 5 lb of live rock and 10 to 15lb of dead rock (it will seed right?)

Yea I see that a lot of the tests are colour coded and are tough to judge. Are there probes that cover all tests or do you need separate probes for each test?

But would like to know if it's possible to cycle the tank to long without adding Ammonia or live stock?
I know these must have been asked before but I have been browsing the forums and get sooo much info that helps - but can't seem to find the info asked. If anyone has a link to the posts or threads it would help me a lot.

Thanks so much for the info so far.

[Original Fin]

I wouldn't worry about the ph until after your tank has cycled. Funky things happen to the water chemistry when cycling. You just have to give mother nature the time she needs to do her thing.

Oh yea. If you only have 15 lbs of rock, you're going to need a lot more. Somewhere along the lines between 1.5 and 2 lbs per gallon.

I use the API test kit but I'm not impressed because it's difficult to read some of the color charts (nitrates between 5ppm and 10ppm look the same color).

I second all of these points. Durring my first cycle, I kept trying to buffer PH up to 8.3 or so. It was a futile effort and probably caused the cycle to take longer. Aside from the bio filtering, more rock should help with buffering too, in the same way arragnite sand will. How deep is that 120lb sand bed BTW?

API test kits can be a PITA...I've got them too, will not purchase any more. Another thing I've noticed is that my ammonia tests never go all the way to zero...it always shows that I've got .025, even with a control of pure RO/DI. PH color gradients are always questionable IMO. If going with reagent test kits, I keep hearing good things about Salifert. Hannah makes a few multi-purpose probe style testers, but nothing that gets all the basics. Electronic testers are the best for sure, but you'll spend many hundreds if not thousands to get all the ones you'd need for reef keeping.

[tank1970]

Big thanks Fin

The sand is about 2 inches deep - I also have 2 inches in the refugium. It's white sand (think calcium is in it)

I also have 2lb live rock in my refugium with cheo

Once the ammonia hit's 0 how long do I have till I add ammonia or fish (or other)

Any advise would be great

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Check out this sticky. Setting Up a FOWLR Aquarium

[tank1970]

Thanks FoMoCo - that was the first link I hit when starting to research. And plan to follow this I also bought a few books before even attempting this adventure :-)

I would like to eventually create a reef tank - I know I will have to wait 6 months to a year to even attempt a quality reef.

But I also want to make sure I start correct (what starts out right ends up right)

I do know I need extra flow and more rock (live and base) which I will get this week end.

I was told I don't need the heater running or lights on while cycling - is this true?

Also I thought (maybe wrong) that I would not need a chemical filter or mechanical i I used live rock and a refugium.
Am I way off base? or am I going in the right way?

[Original Fin]

Big thanks Fin

The sand is about 2 inches deep - I also have 2 inches in the refugium. It's white sand (think calcium is in it)

I also have 2lb live rock in my refugium with cheo

Once the ammonia hit's 0 how long do I have till I add ammonia or fish (or other)

Any advise would be great

Abut your sand...Yes, 2" is probably fine...that's what I've got too. I think three is the number most are shooting for these days for in the display tank. You want enough depth to support pods, worms and other sifters, fiterers and detrivores, but going too deep can lead to other probelms down the road, although Deep Sand Beds (DSB's) themselves can also be very beneficial. With a deeper sand bed, the deep layers have little to no oxygen, and in these layers, there is very little life. This has two distinct benefits 1. It can be a powerful PH buffer with the right kind of sand. 2, It can mitigate nuisance algae problems because it functions as a nutrient sink, trapping phospates and nitrates where they can't/won't be used as a food source to fuel nitrification or nuisance algae. These are your main algae fuels besides light. You're effectively removing them from the water collumn and top substrate layers where they can cause problems. You will hear differing opinions about whether or not a display tank should have a DSB. It's had mixed popularity in recent years. I'm not sure if there have been any in depth studies weighing the pros and cons, but from what I've gathered so far, in theory, a DSB in your display will eventually reach a saturation point and begin leeching back into the water column. Or worse, should something disturb and "turn up" the deep anoxic layers on a mature DSB, all those stored up nutrients could be suddenly released to shock and crash the system. Obviously, there is no way to remove an OLD sand bed in a way that wouldn't crash the tank. For those reasons, aquarists began keeping "remote" DSB's. That is, a container of some sort, often just a 5 gal bucket, filled with mostly sand and maybe an inch or two of water flowing across the surface, connected remotely, with just the bare minimum of flow to keep detritus in suspension. Light is not needed. Being remote has the advantage of being easily refreshed/replaced without impact on the display tank.

In regards to cycling your tank, the preferred method is to cycle with live rock, sounds like that's what you';re doing, right? ...that's all you need, but you need more than what you currently have to take full advantage of the volume of your tank. You should be shooting for 100-150 lbs total.
Once ammonia reaches zero, there is no standard amount of time you can expect for the rest of the cycle to complete...you;ll need to test regularly for nitrites and nitrates after that. Once Nitrites and Ammonia are zero, I'd say wait another week to consider it done.
All the little critters in the rock will produce plenty of ammonia to kick start the cycle and keep it going. With just 20 lbs of LR, you'll still be able to cycle the tank, however; the bio-load capacity will very low. Probably just one smallish fish. If you tried to add more than that, ammonia, nitrites and nitrates would spin out of control. If the thought of shelling out another $7(USD) per lb. is what's holding you back, there is a less costly alternative...instead of live rock, look for "base rock", which is basically just a dry lifeless limestone rock. You can probably get this for closer to $2 lb. The 20 lbs you already have will "seed" the rest of the rock. The base rock is simply providing surface area for bacterial colonization. It's best to use a more porous rock for this purpose, so try not to get too much ledge/plate type rocks.
The cheapest rock out there is actually "Do it Yourself" where you mix portland cement with some combination of buffering aggregate like sand, crushed coral, oyster shells, etc...and then you form your own rocks. We're talking 50 cents or less per lb in some cases, but the big drawback to doing this is that it can take months of "Kuring" time before you can actually use them. Many people have reported start up algae blooms when using these types of Man Made Rocks (You'll see them commonly referred to on the forums as MMR, MMLR, DIY or Arragocrete rocks), although the folks that do it regularly say that if you do it right, that shouldn't be a problem. First, the mixture must be (C)ured-this is the part where you wait for the cement to get solid enough to handle...a couple days to a week. Then, your rocks need to be (K)ured in water to a point where the PH drops low enough to be suitable for use in a reef system...somewhere around 8.3. It can take several months of leeching in flowing water to get to this point. So if you're REALLY patient, this might be an option too. It's pretty popular with people that have really large tanks, where the cost of 100% live rock would be prohibitive.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

If you're looking for a good deal one live rock, check out oceanproaquatics.com. I got two 50+ lbs of Fiji rock them in bulk boxes. I had massive amounts of die off because it dried up during shipping but it came close to $2.30 lb shipped. Not a bad price. Not sure about shipping to Canada though. Just a thought.

[tank1970]

Great info Fin - wow that will help a lot i will try the making my own rock maybe next tank :-)
I will by 20lb more base rock for sure.

the sand info was also a great help and a little alarming - but very good to know

[tank1970]

So just to update on my 75gal - I have added 6lb LR and 10lb of base rock. So total of 30 ish lb of rock with sand base. (2")
I also purchased a fan for flow (1260) up to 100 gal tank.
I also had the water tested
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 50 ppm
Nitrate 30 ppm
PH 8.0

Cycling well - will get the water tested again on Sunday to see if the Nitrite has fallen




Thank you for the offer on the base rock but I am sure shipping costs and border issues would make it very expensive.