Worms? Good or Bad?

[ZaSheik]

Today I went to the beach and brought back some rocks from the pier.

I put them in my QT and upon visiting them later, i noticed worms sprouting from them.

They are just wiggle outside the rocks and blow with the current. They are also clear and each varies in size. i dont think they are planaria because they arnt that tiny.


Any ideas to whether these creatures are good or bad?

[leebca]

I moved this post out of the fish disease forum and into the Reef Forum. I don't think the 'worms' are directly harmful to fish, but for their proper identity and perhaps more info, this is the right place for that.

Are you sure you didn't violate any restrictions when you removed these things from the sea?

Good luck!

[Ninong]

What sort of rocks? Just ordinary terrestrial rocks?

[ZaSheik]

Yes. They have algae on them too, but i think that hardly matters aha

[Ninong]

What is the benefit of putting these rocks in your system?

[ZaSheik]

Well, seeing that rocks sell for 6.99 a pound here where i live, and a 50lb box of anything i order online will cost almost $150... yes, getting free rocks for whatever weight does sound like a terrific idea to me I am currently using them to cycle my 75 gallon tank along with 50lbs of base rock i purchased. I am continuing to check my water to see if any phosphates are leaking out of the rocks, and none have yet.

[SPasse]

ZaSheik,

I don’t know how the current laws are in Florida but it used to be that collecting “live rock” in Florida (without a permit) was a big no-no.

On the subject of live rock, any phosphates that you measure are likely to be an end product of the curing process as opposed to “leaching” from the rock. There is always a curing process, how much of one is dependent on how the live rock was handled post collection. Even if the rock was kept “wet” at all times, there is always some die off due to the critters that currently populate rock don’t all “adapt” to the new environment.

Finally, most of the worms are harmless and actually of benefit, especially if you are working with a DSB or mud bed. There may be other hitchhikers that are less innocuous.

Regards,

Scott

[Ninong]

Scott,

Read posts 3 and 4. He's not in violation of the law because they're not "live rock." They're terrestrial rocks. There are no live rocks there to begin with. (P.S. -- He's not in violation of federal law because they're not real live rocks. They have to be scleractian skeletons to violate federal law. It's possible that he could be in violation of Florida state law if there were any "living marine organisms attached." Florida positively bans the collection of real live rock. That law was first passed about two decades ago. Florida allows aquacultured live rock on a state license basis.)

ZaSheik,

The term "live rock" doesn't actually refer to rocks. Live rocks are dead coral skeletons of coral that broke off the reef and then died and been subjected to the elements for a period of time. During that time, the live rocks are penetrated by beneficial microcrustaceans and polychaetes, as well as beneficial denitrifying bacteria.

Ordinary terrestrial rocks are impervious to the elements. They wear down over time -- hundreds of years -- but they are not penetrated by beneficial bacteria and critters because they are not aragonite skeletons.

And, as Scott has already mentioned, it is strictly illegal to collect real live rock in any of the waters of the United States or any of its territories. The penalty, if caught, is a large fine and/or time in federal prison. Not cool. It is also against the laws of the state of Florida.

If I were you, I would remove the rocks from your system. They really don't provide any benefit at all and any life that might have come in with them is probably undesirable in a tropical reef aquarium.



P.S. -- Under US federal law, live rock is classified as Scleractinia (a CITES II restriction). Anyone caught without a CITES certificate will be arrested.

P.P.S. -- Under Florida state law, the definition of live rock is even more expansive: Specific Authority 370.01(20), 370.027(2), 370.06(2)(d), F.S. Law Implemented 370.01(20), 370.025, 370.027, 370.06(2)(d), F.S. History -- New 1-1-91, Amended 7-1-92, 1-1-95.

46-42.002 Definitions.-- As used in this rule chapter:

(7) "Live rock" means rock with living marine organisms attached to it.


Apparently Florida doesn't even care if it's scleractinian or not. Obviously all real live rock has "living marine organisms attached to it" but I guess it's possible that ordinary terrestrial rock that is submerged might have "living marine organisms" attached. "Living marine organisms" is an extremely broad term.

[SPasse]

Ninong,

There is also a bill that has passed the House and is in the Senate, that may put an end to Florida Live Rock, including the aquacultured variety.

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/08/03/live-rock-hr-3534-law-aquaculture-federal-waters-offshore/

I also imagine defining “terrestrial vs. scleractian” might be a little interesting due to the composition of much of Florida’s “terrestrial” rock.

Regards,

Scott

[Ninong]

Ninong,

There is also a bill that has passed the House and is in the Senate, that may put an end to Florida Live Rock, including the aquacultured variety.

http://reefbuilders.com/2010/08/03/live-rock-hr-3534-law-aquaculture-federal-waters-offshore/

Wow! I really hate to see something like marine aquaculture moved from NOAA to the Interior Department. The Interior Dept., as you well know, has been known to be nothing more than a branch of the Big Oil and Big Mining companies.

I agree with the NOAA administrator: “NOAA believes that aquaculture must be conducted in an environmentally responsible fashion, and that a national aquaculture policy that vests NOAA with authority to ensure that aquaculture is practiced in a sustainable fashion is the best approach.”

I also imaging defining “terrestrial vs. scleractian” might be a little interesting due to the composition of much of Florida’s “terrestrial” rock.

They could have defined it as calcium-carbonate based rock if they wanted to make sure that limestone was included. The way it's definied, it's almost as if they're telling you that you will be in violation of state law if you simply pick up any kind of submerged rocks that have "living marine organisms attached." Their definition is confusing. I don't recall reading anything about people being arrested for being caught with ordinary terrestrial rocks that they picked up below the low tide line, do you? On the other hand, they bust people for trying to collect real Florida live rock all the time.

[ZaSheik]

Thats a lot of information. However, its exactly what i was hoping for.

I thought that ordinary rocks were alright, like these terrestrial rocks. They appear to be granite, but have algae and small little holes for the worms. I spent two hours searching the Florida senate website to see if it was alright before I had done so and all that i found was the protecting of manatees, sea turtles, beaches, and the coral reefs. Nothing I found applied to rocks right off the coast?

[Ninong]

Thats a lot of information. However, its exactly what i was hoping for.

I thought that ordinary rocks were alright, like these terrestrial rocks.

Nope, ordinary rocks are rocks. That's about it. "Live rock" isn't really rock. Florida outlawed harvesting natural live rock because it was unsustainable. As the hobby grew, the demand for Florida live rock was just too great.

You can still get aquacultured live rock from Florida but that's just limestone that was dug up and set out on racks in the Gulf of Mexico for 18 months or so until it gets encrusted with marine life and infiltrated with beneficial bacteria. The biggest drawback to that is that's it's dense. Very dense. Another potential drawback is that it is likely to include a lot of "marine life" that you really don't want.

Natural live rock is still being harvested in the Indo-Pacific -- Indonesia, Fiji, etc. The Kingdom of Tonga put a 'temporary' halt to exports of their live rock supposedly to give them time to come up with a plan to regulate it better. I don't think any live rock is coming out of the Marshall Islands now either.

Natural live rock is collected in the rubble zone. It's pieces of the reef that broke off during storms. It's certainly not a good idea for anyone to actually chop up a reef just to produce live rock. That has happened in Haiti.

It used to be quite common for some of the island nations of the Indo-Pacific to bulldoze their reefs wholesale to use the calcium-carbonate 'rock' as building material. The Maldives, for example, built an airport out into the water and used reefs that they destroyed as fill to make their new landing strips. Coral skeletons were commonly used as building material to build homes and make roads. They just looked upon the reefs as a resource to exploit.

[Ninong]

Nothing I found applied to rocks right off the coast?

I could be wrong but I don't believe it was their intention to include ordinary rocks, just calcium-carbonate based 'live rock.'

However, this is Florida's definition:

46-42.002 Definitions.-- As used in this rule chapter:

(7) "Live rock" means rock with living marine organisms attached to it.

[ricksreef]

As a florida resident that has collected, aquacultured, and just been an all around diving dude, it matters little what the base composition of the rock you pull from the water is made of, it's all live rock.

heck, I received a stern talking to (and the threat of arrest) for picking up a rock in a parking lot in the keys. "it's within 15 feet of the water so I'll call live rock and arrest you if you keep it"

any rock they catch you with in the state of florida will be suspect.

[Ninong]

Thanks, Rick. I guess that explains that.

[Ninong]

"Living marine organisms" includes bacteria. Here's the dictionary's defination of "organism:"

"a form of life considered as an entity; an animal, plant, fungus, protistan, or moneran."

[ricksreef]

The Actual definition of aquarium 'live rock' is the presence of bacteria, not cool purple colors, algae, corals, etc. that may also inhabit the rock.

basically, If it wet, or may get wet, it's considered 'live rock' in the keys.

be prepared to surrender your underwear and your boat if you get 'popped' in the keys.

[metalhead]

Laws and outlaws aside I have to agree with Ninong... I see no benefit to be gained by using this rock in a captive reef system. If establishing a system is your goal then find some dry-rock (formerly live) and cure it yourself if your looking to save money. Otherwise just suck it up and spring for some good cured rock for $7/lb. This will be the basis of your reef, whether you cure your own or purchase pre-cooked insist on good, quality rock.

You mentioned earlier that the rock appeared to be granite-like... Do you realize how much weight would be involved here? If it were granite, which is doubtful based on your geographic location, I would wager that either your tank or stand would break by the time you stacked enough for a good aquascape. More than likely it's dense limestone which is still very heavy. Either way, neither would make good live-rock. What you'll want is something very porous and open, the more overall surface area the better.

On the flip-side, if I were considering using such rock for say a cichlid tank, I would be much more concerned about pollutant contamination than a few worms. There's really no way at our level to test for all the nasties that are more than likely inhabiting the rock you picked up off the coast of Florida... Just thinking about tossing one of those rocks in my tank makes me sick!

[ZaSheik]

I'm sure its undoubtedly obvious, but I am new to the hobby. I wasnt trying to intentionally break any laws, honest. And the weight is no issue for i only snagged a few rocks after a surf sesh the other day to get my tank to cycle. Nothing to cause my stand to snap, haha. I am just trying to learn and im very thankful for all of your comments

Also,
I picked up some base rock from the store for a couple bucks a pound a while ago. But i was wondering if coquina rock is also safe to use? Someone at another store told me it wasn't, but others said it was..

[Ninong]

But i was wondering if coquina rock is also safe to use? Someone at another store told me it wasn't, but others said it was..

I wouldn't use it:

Coquina rock, geologically known as Donak Variabilis, is mainly composed of incompletely consolidated sedimentary rock. It is formed of billions of small clam-like seashell, called Coquina, or cockleshell. Overall composition of most Coquina rock is a mixture of these small marine clams, crushed oyster shell, mollusk shell, fragmented fossils, fragmented coral, crinoids, limestone, red sand, white sand, phosphate, calcite, and perhaps a little clay. It is relatively soft when quarried, and hardens over the years, after surface exposure.

Here.