new momma

[nikaslife]

where to start.. very new, green.. am a nurse that was looking for a new home for my 10inch Oscar and ended up with a new hobby that i have been wanting to start for a very long time.. 65gal about 100lbs ?live rock.. love it, but have so many questions, have been reading lots, listening to the guy that sold it to me (he sold his shop), listening to some others but wanted to come here and read, see what some of you thought about this wonderful world. some are telling me to put fish in it, some are saying i dont have to yet. i want some fish, but mostly i want the garden. some corals, maybe when i learn more about them.. HELP.. has been up and running since Sat. have tested the water twice, keeping the temp around 76-77.. looks good to me.. but what do i know. what does it need to be at this point, what if the rock is not "live"?, what if he sold me a load of crap?.. now you know where i'm at..

[okiestranger]

Hello and welcome!!!!
Tell us more about your equipment? And also what all test do you run. Nitrates nitrites and ammonia since you tank is still new also Ph and salinity. I keep my temp at 78

[Original Fin]

Welcome to Reefland, and welcome to Marine Aquaria!

In some ways, having a background in freshwater is a benefit, but there are certain things you'll have to unlearn. Following is my top 10 FW to SW heads up list...

1. Cycling. The amount of time it takes to "cycle" the tank before you can add fish and invertabrates is much longer in marine systems. Anyone who tells you to wait X amount of days is just giving bad advice. Could be anywhere from 2-8 weeks, typically. The way to know is through regular testing of Ammonia, Nitrites and nitrates. If you haven't already, read up on the nitrogen cycle for saltwater systems.

2. Biocapacity. The biocapacity of marine systems is much lower than those of freshwater. That means you'll be able to keep fewer fish than with freshwater. We don't like to use the inches per gallon rule of thumb because of all the different types of fish and their different needs. Also, in freswater, it might work out to keep a 12" fish in a 55 gallon tank, but that won't work well here. Generally, if you want to keep the larger varieties of ornamental marine fish, you'd need really large tanks, in excess of 240 gallons.

3. Source water. I can't stress enough how important this is for reef systems...Tap water is a no-no, even with conditioners. You'll need to use either RODI filtered water, distilled water, or Natural (normal) Sea Water. The most cost effective and convenient thing to do is to purchase your own RODI filtration system. The measures of quality for source water are very low to immeasurable TDS, Ammonia, Nitrates, Phosphates and silicates.

4. Testing. Some you may be used to...Ammonia, temperature, PH (it's a higher range though) Nitrites, Nitrates. You'll also need to minimally test for the following in a reef...Alkalinity, Calcium, Magnesium and phosphates. Strip tests are lousy and innacurate. Go for quality liquid test kits and be advised that there aren't many LFS that cary the good stuff. I like Salifert. They cost more, but use the cheaper ones for a while, and you'll understand why you get what you pay for.

5. Lighting. Big differences. You need reef specific lighting frequencies, intensity and colors based on the types of corals you wish to keep. Metal Halide and T5HO fluorescents are the two most prevalent types. LED is up and coming, but as of yet unproven and expensive.

6. Flow. Reef systems require 10-20X system volume flow per hour, depending on types of corals. Soft corals are on the lower end, LPS middle, and SPS highest. You can get flow from internal powerheads, return pump lines from a sump, pump driven filters (such as skimmers), waveboxes and/or closed loop returns. Corals benefit from chaotic flow and alternating current.

7. Filtration. Protein skimmer with Live Rock and sand is all you really need. This takes care of all your mechanical and biofitration needs. Carbon is optional...it's nice to have in case of some sort of fouling, and to polish the water. What you don't want, are any canisters, hang on's or wet-dry filters that utilize man made bio-media. This traps detritus, which makes controlling nitrates alot more difficult than it needs to be. Avoid floss amd filter socks for the same reason, but if you must, clean them at least every three days.
Having a sump system is a must have IMO. At the least, it aids in system turnover, surface skimming, and it provides a place to house heaters, skimmers and auto top off systems. Optionally, it provides a place for deep sand beds and refugiums...a very useful and natural method for nutrient export. It's also a good place to culture zooplankton like copepods in an area free from predation. Many fish and corals benefit from live copepods in the system. For some, like Mandarin Dragonettes, pods are a requirement.

8. Top offs, Water Changes and salinity. You need to top off with fresh water, not mixed salt. Salt does not evaporate, so if you keep adding it, you'll overshoot the recommended salinity which is 1.025-1.026 for a reef. Tip-get a refractometer to measure salinity. Hygrometers and hydrometers are notoriously innacurate.
Having an auto top off device is highly recommended because it's critical to keep salinity stabile. Otherwise, you'll need to get used to topping off at least twice a day. Reef lighting and all the necessary flowpumps cause a great deal more evaporation than you may be used to in a FW system.
The better your filtration, the fewer water changes you'll need to make. If you're going to run with a powerful skimmer and sump system with refugium, you can get away with fewer changes than otherwise. There are some who succesfully run softy tanks without the aid of skimmers, but they really need to keep up on water changes if that's the case. I have a skimmer and refugium, and I change 20% weekly. If I didn't have a skimmer, I'd be looking at doubling or tripling that amount.


9. Dosing. As the tank matures, corals and other inverts use up calcium, magnesium and other trace elements from the water column. You will need to measure these levels regularly and replenish them as necessary. You can do this by hand, or use automated dosers. We don't buffer PH in reef tanks, instead, we buffer alkalinity and calcium (and magnesium) , which in turn buffers the PH to the proper level.

10. Cost of ownership. It's much, much higher than most people expect. First, the equipment is more specialized/exclusive and therefore more costly to produce. If you want to automate, even moreso. Electrical consumption can be quite high, especially with metal halide lighting. Consumables such as fish/coral food, meds/dips, test kits, buffers/additives and salts are the biggest continuing cost. I estimate that I spend roughly $100/mo on average for all the above on my 55 gallon mixed reef.

Good luck!

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Excellent write up on the basics to consider when transitioning from fresh to saltwater systems Fin! Many question can be answered from that short post and it gives a great reference on research topics that need to be done by the beginning hobbyist. If I were to add another topic, it would be:
11. Stability and Change. The marine system is ever changing as the tank matures, livestock is added, and growth is progressing. The hobbyist is responsible for making the necessary adjustments needed to maintain optimum water parameters, flow, coral/ fish feeding/ nutrition, etc... All of the changes, weather it's coral placement, calcium/alkalinity/ magnesium supplementation, new fish additions (which should go through a proper quarantine process), replacing/ adding live rock, salinity/ temperature adjustments, etc..., should be done slowly and methodically so as not to abruptly disrupt the fragile ecosystem that you've made. IMO, it's just as important to have consistency as it is to have parameters at the correct levels.

[okiestranger]

Wow Outstanding read for anybody.... Thanks and well done fine anf FoMoCo...

[nikaslife]

Excellent write up on the basics to consider when transitioning from fresh to saltwater systems Fin! Many question can be answered from that short post and it gives a great reference on research topics that need to be done by the beginning hobbyist. If I were to add another topic, it would be:
11. Stability and Change. The marine system is ever changing as the tank matures, livestock is added, and growth is progressing. The hobbyist is responsible for making the necessary adjustments needed to maintain optimum water parameters, flow, coral/ fish feeding/ nutrition, etc... All of the changes, weather it's coral placement, calcium/alkalinity/ magnesium supplementation, new fish additions (which should go through a proper quarantine process), replacing/ adding live rock, salinity/ temperature adjustments, etc..., should be done slowly and methodically so as not to abruptly disrupt the fragile ecosystem that you've made. IMO, it's just as important to have consistency as it is to have parameters at the correct levels.

ok.. woooohooo thanks Stephen, great info.. and i think it was james thank you also.. i have lets see, 2 Seio pumps up top for flow and a Rio on bottom (i think 820GPH), have the Protein skimmer don't remember the name (429.00), center has sand,rock, and heater set at 77*, fan set up on bottom to keep cool, fan set above lamp canopy, 4 light 2white, 2 blue Atinic white/blue (T12VHO)... ok, do you understand all this... i know you do.. i'm just laughing here.. just returned from the fish guy store, he laughs at me..
test kit, love the chemistry.. not strips..
today was ph 8.4/ sp.gravity 1.025/ ammonia 0/ nitrite 0/ nitrate 0.... which is different from the third day after set up when i had nitrite 0.25/nitrate 5.0/ ammonia 0/ all other the same...stated the set up with RO water, but have been using distilled to replace the evaporation, have a friend (i live in the land of engineers) who is gonna set me up with an RO system in my kitchen.
so what do you think...
Monika

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Welcome to Reefland, and welcome to Marine Aquaria!
In some ways, having a background in freshwater is a benefit, but there are certain things you'll have to unlearn. Following is my top 10 FW to SW heads up list...

That topic would make a great sticky, don't you think? Many people convert from freshwater to saltwater without realizing the vast differences and requirements. I'd like to see a sticky explaning those points !

[Original Fin]

Monika,

I think you're off to a great start! BTW my name is Adam...I guess the Stephen Wright (comedian) quotes in my signature area are somewhat confusing...I certainly can't take any credit for his genious!

James,

Agreed. Who's domain would that be though? Ninong, Lee, Kevinpo, SPasse...? Maybe we can hit those guys up with a request?
If it were to end up as a sticky, it would have far more credibility if it was reworked or at least blessed from one of those guys. I just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...I'm no expert.

[nikaslife]

Monika,

I think you're off to a great start! BTW my name is Adam...I guess the Stephen Wright (comedian) quotes in my signature area are somewhat confusing...I certainly can't take any credit for his genious!

James,

Agreed. Who's domain would that be though? Ninong, Lee, Kevinpo, SPasse...? Maybe we can hit those guys up with a request?
If it were to end up as a sticky, it would have far more credibility if it was reworked or at least blessed from one of those guys. I just stayed at a Holiday Inn last night...I'm no expert.

hhhmmmm i see that now ADAM.... so your saying i must wait severl weeks to add anything.. and then to add slowly, that fits right into what i have read. although today i did add 5 snails, 2 crabs, and 2 shrimp.. all not that expensive, but just wanted to see if the rock for one could handle something small, and 2 if something could live in what i had build.. i do so love the whole thought of this, understanding the expense, and at the same time am ready for my somewhat boring life to have something new... so the 5 dogs, one amazon Ringo, and don't forget Oscar and I are gonna all take on the new saltwater tank... with all of your help... lots of love going out to you all...
Nika..

[nikaslife]

oohh one more thing.. the lights.. i just turn them on when i get up in the morning and turn them off when i go to bed.. after reading some of the other questions.. i think i am giving too much light, and what about "moon light", don't have one of those.. what do you think of 12hrs on 12hrs off, i work 12hr shifts 3 days a week and really would prefer those days to have the lights on when i was home and not away.. is that ok??? am i confusing the rock??hahahaha

[chrisfont23]

oohh one more thing.. the lights.. i just turn them on when i get up in the morning and turn them off when i go to bed.. after reading some of the other questions.. i think i am giving too much light, and what about "moon light", don't have one of those.. what do you think of 12hrs on 12hrs off, i work 12hr shifts 3 days a week and really would prefer those days to have the lights on when i was home and not away.. is that ok??? am i confusing the rock??hahahaha

Just get a timer. Home Depot sells timer/power strips for $20.

http://www.homedepot.com/buy/electri...mer-72361.html

[Original Fin]

hhhmmmm i see that now ADAM.... so your saying i must wait severl weeks to add anything.. and then to add slowly, that fits right into what i have read. although today i did add 5 snails, 2 crabs, and 2 shrimp.. all not that expensive, but just wanted to see if the rock for one could handle something small, and 2 if something could live in what i had build.. i do so love the whole thought of this, understanding the expense, and at the same time am ready for my somewhat boring life to have something new... so the 5 dogs, one amazon Ringo, and don't forget Oscar and I are gonna all take on the new saltwater tank... with all of your help... lots of love going out to you all...
Nika..

My advice is to forget about marking your calendar, and just go by your test results. You are waiting for ammonia to spike and then zero, then the same with nitrites. Nitrates will be the last to show up, and the only way to mange their levels down is with husbandry, i.e. water changes, and other means of export.
Once all of that has happened, I recommend waiting two more weeks before adding higher life forms like the clean up crew, and then after a couple more weeks perhaps your first fish.

In marine systems, quarantining is pretty much a necessity because of the prevalence of disease, especially marine ich, velvet and brooklynella. You'll need another tank setup for that, and expect to keep one fish at a time for up to 6 weeks in this qt tank for observation and possibly treatment. Certain fish should be dewormed during this time, and other prophylactic treatments are advised for other species.

The clean up crew you added already are probably in for a bumpy ride...some/all of them may not make it. Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are all poisonous to inverts, so the chances of them making it through a cycle are not good.

[Original Fin]

oohh one more thing.. the lights.. i just turn them on when i get up in the morning and turn them off when i go to bed.. after reading some of the other questions.. i think i am giving too much light, and what about "moon light", don't have one of those.. what do you think of 12hrs on 12hrs off, i work 12hr shifts 3 days a week and really would prefer those days to have the lights on when i was home and not away.. is that ok??? am i confusing the rock??hahahaha

12 on 12 off is good, just keep it consistent. Timers are the way to go.

Moon lights aren't necessary if you hav some other source of low ambient light in the room. If it's pitch black dark, then yes, you should add some sort of moonlighting.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

In marine systems, quarantining is pretty much a necessity because of the prevalence of disease, especially marine ich, velvet and brooklynella. You'll need another tank setup for that, and expect to keep one fish at a time for up to 6 weeks in this qt tank for observation and possibly treatment. Certain fish should be dewormed during this time, and other prophylactic treatments are advised for other species.

I can definately vouch for this information. I have had 5 fish to date. Out of the five, three have had ich. All three survived the copper treatment (one is still in quaratine as the treatment only ended today). Had I added the fish without a QT process, I would be continually battling a parasite in the display tank, which would have likely knocked me out of the hobby all together.

[chavez]

Ok correct me if im wrong but i was told that ICH is a parasite always present in your marine tank it just wait's for stressed fish or fish which are not properly fed and then attacks them is this true? cause if it is would a QT tank not be a waste of time? Don't get me wrong im all for QT tanks as i have one set up just waiting for it to cycle cant get rid of high nitrites. Also i think a QT is a necessity cause if one of your fish do get sick you can always put him in the QT for treatment. I don't know maybe i was miss informed about ICH always being present in your Display tank, but lets clear this up so we all know the truth!

[Original Fin]

As I understand it, that's one of those rumors that just won't die, so no, it isn't true. You could ask Lee directly about it in the fish care forum and I'm sure he could elaborate.

[FoMoCo Master Tech]

Definately a myth. Lee's got a sticky on the myths and facts concerning MI. Its a great read