sump refugium design... HELP!

[TheGrimReefer]

im in the process of designing a sump/ refugium for my tank. heres the problem, my stand has 2 doors on the front so i cant fit the 29 or 55 gallon tank i desire underneath. the only way to would be to empty the tank down and remove the front support from my stand. so i was thinking what about useing a 15 tall (20x10x17tall) for a refugium and a 20 tall for the sump (24x12.5x17tall). my plan is to get them both drilled for a 1" bulkhead about 12 or so inches up and connect them side by side. the inlet for the refugium will be run off the overflow and a ballvalve so i can control the flow to a slower rate, my idea is that once it fills to about 12 inches that will overflow into the sump, while the sump i may only put 10 inches of water in. if the power goes out both tanks can rise to 17 inches which is more than enough. does this pose any problems? other threads ive read on this say the refugium must be higher than the sump but i dont see why. ill try to get a scaled drawing of what i want made up and on here ASAP.

[Reefing Madness]

Melevsreef.com | Acrylic Sumps & Refugiums
I don't see any flaw with your reasoning. They want one or the other higher than the other for flow purposes.

[TheGrimReefer]

yeah i figured that was the reasoning behind it all. ive been reading alot on plans and now i think instead of running my refugium off of my overflow im going to run it off the return pump with a ballvalve so the water gets skimmed before it enters and ill just overpower my return pump a little. ive read i want a 4x per hour turnover. im running a 75gal tank so that means i need about 300gph, but since im putting some of that in the refugium i need something around 400gph needed so i think ill find something around 600 because i can always slow it down with a little restriction. and recomendations on a brand? i was looking at a marineland maxi-jet 300, that has 500gph at 4' head and im at about 3.5' so thatd be perfect. I went to that website earlier today and liked his DIY overflow box so i took the plans and have mine glueing up right now.

[TheGrimReefer]

ok so i got most of my stuff done. i have to put the overflow box on a belt sander or something to clean up the edge before i glue on the other side, and just final glue all the plumbing work. the reason i had to make this box is because of space issues behind the tank so i made it have a further drop off in the back and made sure the dump tubes were above the siphon tube so itll stay under water. those are 4 1/2in pvc tubes with bulkheads made from electical conduit fittings into a 1 1/2" tube which then reduces to 1" that will go to the sump on the right side with the simmer and heater, that box raised in the sump is for a charcoal sock if needed or phos remover, the pvc is just for some structural support, the refugium will be fed off the return and into that box. the inlet will be down low and flow up through live rock rubble into a dsb cheato tank with a 1" bulkhead back into the return side of the sump. Im running a coralife skimmer now but im going to switch to a reef octopus xs 160. and i just need to figure out what to use for return pump, im still leaning towars a maxijet 3000. well enough blabbing heres the progress.

[Reefing Madness]

Couple things here. Are you using silicone to glue acrylic together? It won't work. Silocone does not bind acrylic together. You have to use the 2 part acrylic glue. Second, your slow will not be correct because you should not go 3 into 1 with the lines. They should all be seperate.
1- 1" pvc = 600gph
2- 1" pvc = 1200gph seperate

[TheGrimReefer]

no im useing weld on 16 to glue the sems of the acrylic, and aquarioum silicone to glue the baffles in the tank. and there is actually 4 dump pipes and they are 1/2" pvc and they go into a 1 1/2" pvc with threaded NPT pvc fittings. I was forced to use the small pvc due to lack of space behind my tank, and i doubt itll really slow me down at all, if any. I dont feel like runing 4 pipes to the sump area and i think a 1 1/2 pipe flows alot more then 4 1/2 pipes. Or atleast im hopeing, the only thing i can due is make the overflow box longer and put 5 or 6 1/2 pvc pipes in it, but 1/2 in the biggest i can go. Other than that what do you think of the design?

[TheGrimReefer]

just found a web site showing pvc flow rates.
GPM/GPH Flow based on PVC Pipe Size, ie, How much water can flow through Sch 40 Pvc Pipe Size 1/2" 3/4" 1" 1.5" 2" 2.5" 3" 4" 6"

they say 1/2 pvc with minimum pressure will flow 420 gph, so lets say they overrated that and lets go with 300gph because its not minimul pressure, its more like no pressure. that means my 4 pipes will flow roughly 1200gph.
they also say a 1 1/2 pipe will flow 2100 gph, again well asumme they over rated that one also. and say it can handle 1500 gph with no pressure. that still is more than my 1200 gph out of the overflow box, so in my eyes i have no restriction there.

[Reefing Madness]

just found a web site showing pvc flow rates.
GPM/GPH Flow based on PVC Pipe Size, ie, How much water can flow through Sch 40 Pvc Pipe Size 1/2" 3/4" 1" 1.5" 2" 2.5" 3" 4" 6"

they say 1/2 pvc with minimum pressure will flow 420 gph, so lets say they overrated that and lets go with 300gph because its not minimul pressure, its more like no pressure. that means my 4 pipes will flow roughly 1200gph.
they also say a 1 1/2 pipe will flow 2100 gph, again well asumme they over rated that one also. and say it can handle 1500 gph with no pressure. that still is more than my 1200 gph out of the overflow box, so in my eyes i have no restriction there.

Your restriction is multiple pipes running into one. So , I would have no idea what your return pump would need to be. I couldn't even guess at what your overflow would actually be.

[TheGrimReefer]

i dont see how that would be restricting because the pipe increases in diameter and flow when the the smaller pipes intersect it. if anything the resrtiction ins the small pipes. Anyhow i dont know what to estimate what its going to flow at either. All i know is that its going to flow more than what i need it too out of the main tank (i read thats the idea, you cant have to big an overflow). which if the calculation is 4x the main tank size (75gal), that would be 300gph. If the 4x thing is right for the turnover rate i need that plus whatever my refugium flow needs to be which i assume is also about 4x? the refugium is 10 gal that would be 40gph at 1' head + 300gph at 4' head. Does that help you better for a reccomendation? Something that can give around 400 gph at 4' head if my calculations are right

[Reefing Madness]

i dont see how that would be restricting because the pipe increases in diameter and flow when the the smaller pipes intersect it. if anything the resrtiction ins the small pipes. Anyhow i dont know what to estimate what its going to flow at either. All i know is that its going to flow more than what i need it too out of the main tank (i read thats the idea, you cant have to big an overflow). which if the calculation is 4x the main tank size (75gal), that would be 300gph. If the 4x thing is right for the turnover rate i need that plus whatever my refugium flow needs to be which i assume is also about 4x? the refugium is 10 gal that would be 40gph at 1' head + 300gph at 4' head. Does that help you better for a reccomendation? Something that can give around 400 gph at 4' head if my calculations are right

Sounds about right. Even if you get it wrong, what you want to do is T off the return right at the sump and use a ball valve to really dial in the return.

[TheGrimReefer]

whats a good quiet pump in that flow range, maxijet 3000 has good reviews, any other suggestions? and is a reef octopus xs 160 a good skimmer all ive seen is good reviews anyone with one? another question is will adding a sump and more sand to my refugium going to send my tank into a mini cycle. I know someone breaking down a reef tank so im going to get the live rock from him so its already cured. i figured that would help not cause my levels to go all funky on me.

[Reefing Madness]

Your Fuge is not big enough to throw your system into a mini cycle, that I would not worry about. I like and have used the Queit One Pumps, efficient and extremely quiet.
Reef Octopus is an extremely good choice in skimmers.

[TheGrimReefer]

quite one pumps look like a good choice they are cheaper then the maxijet pumps. the only thing im somwhat concerned about them is it doesnt appear to have a base of any sort in the pictures. does it come with anything or do you simply just place it on the return side floor, or hang it with the pvc plumbing? i was planning on buidling a small stand to keep the pump off the floor of the return side a couple inches incase my siphon fails i dont overfill the DT. im looking at the quiet one 3000, the larger ones seem to have some sort of base to put screws through no suction cups though

[Reefing Madness]

They have 4 lilttle rubber bumpers on the bottom of them. You just set them in the sump area.

[TheGrimReefer]

ok so i got a mag drive 5 and a auto top off system used for 60 bucks so i guess my pump will be a magdrive for now haha. got most my plumbing measured and set up (not glued yet). The only thing i need is some sort of union for the outlet of the pump so i can unscrew it without disconnecting the rest of the plumbing and i think ill put another one in between the sump and tank where it comes through the stand with ballvalves there just incase i haveta remove the sump for some reason. in the front of the tanks is something i made up to simulate a powerhead on the tank return

[TheGrimReefer]

forgot to mention all the plumbing is 3/4. the mag drive 5 pump has a 1/2 taper thead on it but i figured most bigger pumps require 3/4 inch so i pumped it all in that with an adapter at the pump just incase i have to go to something a little more powerful.

[Reefing Madness]

Just a question for you on your plumbing. How is the water going to get from the left tank to the right tank? I see thats its above the other, but, you have the pvc at the bottom of the tank. ?? doesn't look free flow. And if you lost suction how would it start again?

[TheGrimReefer]

theres going to be a 1" bulkead drilled between the 2 tanks at the top of the fuge so it overlows to the other tank. im waiting for them to come from bulkreefsupply.com. should be in by this weekend, and i have a friend that works in a glass shop thats going to drill em for me;)

[TheGrimReefer]

and the tube in the bottom of the fuge goes into the crushed live rock chamber and that overflows into the fuge section of the tank

[Reefing Madness]

theres going to be a 1" bulkead drilled between the 2 tanks at the top of the fuge so it overlows to the other tank. im waiting for them to come from bulkreefsupply.com. should be in by this weekend, and i have a friend that works in a glass shop thats going to drill em for me;)