Live Rock and Sand Conundrum

[theawesomeguy]

Hey all,

I've been a freshwater hobbyist for some time now, and I wanted to start up a marine aquarium as well. I've read through many of leebca's amazing posts in these forums, and they've helped me tremendously. I still have a few lingering questions about live rock and live sand though, and I thought this forum section was the best to post it in (I'm new around here, so I apologize if it's not; I thought posting here would be more appropriate than in the fish only section since I want a FOWLR aquarium).

Firstly, how much live rock would I need for a 55 gallon tank? I know there's some rule of 1.5-2 pounds for every gallon, but that comes out to about 80-110 pounds, which would cost me around $300 or so. Now, when I asked the guy at my LFS how much I needed, he said, "oh you just need about 3 or 4 rocks" referring to these giant rocks he had in some of his tanks (idk how big they were, I asked their weight and he didn't know). That would actually save me a large sum of money, since those 3 rocks would cost about $60 collectively. People always say employees of your LFS just want to sell you stuff and make money, even though his recommendation is much cheaper than what people on the internet suggest. Would I need less rock (and potentially saving me some money) if I bought live sand to compliment the live rock instead of buying "regular" sand?

My second question is that is it really necessary to quarantine live rock and live sand even if there's nothing in your tank yet? I could understand quarantining it if you are adding more after you already have an established tank, but if there's nothing in it yet, does it really matter? Wouldn't any parasites/pathogens come out during the cycling process anyway and you'd know to treat them before adding anything else to your tank?

Thanks in advance for any help!
TheAwesomeGuy

[Reefing Madness]

Once again the LFS is wrong. Live Rock is the reason saltwater tanks don't need to run filters, this rock is your biological filtration. The rule is 1.5-2lbs per gallon. I recommned at least 1lb per gallon, this is for those guys that don't really want to run that much, but it really is needed. Live Sand, or Crushed Coral should cover up to 2-3" of the bottom of the tank. You don't need to buy all Live Rock though, look up Macro Rock. You can seed the Tank with one piece of Live Rock, this will save you a ton of cash. Cure it all at the same time. Sand and Live Rock at same time.

[theawesomeguy]

Interesting… If you have live rock, do you not need a filter at all (for mechanical and chemical filtration)? Or, if I were to add on a filter in addition to having live rock, would I be able to buy less rock?

If I were to buy a few pounds of live rock and then this: 50 Pound box Key Largo Rock, Free Shipping *in the continental US* would that be good enough?

My only question though is that after reading this article: What is Live Rock, Anyway? under the "Great Expectations" section, it says that this base rock won't be nearly as good as regular live rock, so should I just skip the Marco Rock and invest in live rock?

I don't mean to sound cheap, I really do want the best for my future aquarium, I'm just trying to find the most cost efficient way of doing it.

Thanks again for your time!

[Reefing Madness]

Interesting… If you have live rock, do you not need a filter at all (for mechanical and chemical filtration)? Or, if I were to add on a filter in addition to having live rock, would I be able to buy less rock?

If I were to buy a few pounds of live rock and then this: 50 Pound box Key Largo Rock, Free Shipping *in the continental US* would that be good enough?

My only question though is that after reading this article: What is Live Rock, Anyway? under the "Great Expectations" section, it says that this base rock won't be nearly as good as regular live rock, so should I just skip the Marco Rock and invest in live rock?

I don't mean to sound cheap, I really do want the best for my future aquarium, I'm just trying to find the most cost efficient way of doing it.

Thanks again for your time!

Filters just cause you issues, like Nitrate problems. You can run what you want to, but if you want a less hands on, then you should go with the Live Rock, and not the Filter. Biological filtration is a much better source than using a mechanical filter. Works way different. Excellent choice in rocks to, I might add. I don't really care for that article you read. If you seed the tank with a piece of Live Rock, those bilogicals that are in that rock will grow and seed the other rock, thus making it all biological Live Rock. Its the lil things in that one piece of Live Rock in my opinion that you need, not 50lbs worth. But it will take longer for that rock to fully mature.
I would suggest you go with the Macro Rock you have chosen, and only get one piece of Live Rock, be it only a 5-10lb rock.
I'm sure Lee will chime in here, but that is what I would do with my tank. And that is what I did with my tank. I have 60lbs of Live Rock, and 180lbs of Base Rock. Nothing wrong with my tank, coralline grows on all of it.

[theawesomeguy]

I'll probably end up doing that then, some live rock with a lot of base rock.

How bad are some of the "bad" organisms that can come along with live rock? I've done some research and some people really make it sound like that if you get one of these bad algae or isopods or w/e, you have to basically restart cuz they are so difficult to get rid of. How common are these bad organisms? Is it just hype or is there a legitimate concern?

And when you say it will take longer, do you mean a few weeks or several months? (I'm not impatient, I'm just curious about a time frame). If I were to throw in some unseasoned raw shrimp from a grocery store or something, could that kickstart the cycling process or would you recommend against that?

Thanks again!

[Reefing Madness]

Legitimate concern with Live Rock. Its the toss of a coin as to wether your going to get one or a few of the nastys in there. Most try to get those things out when they first appear. But there are quite a few bad guys that come on Live Rock. Then again, there are quite a few good things that come on it also.
Live Rock Hitch Hikers

Guesstimates on your tank cycling would be around 4-6 weeks, with your shrimp thrown in. The only way your going to know that down is to use FUlly Cured Live Rock. Then the cycle will be roughly a week.

[atlanticreef]

I've just been reading this thread about filter not being necessary. That it just causes more problems than its worth. So i was running a fluval 205 until just now when I found a crack in the base. So I'm running the new fluval 206.. So I could take these of and not use them at all then what would I use for filtration and keeping good water quality other than theblive rock?? Also if you don't need them than why do you have sump systems and refs. And what are they for?? Sorry for jumping in on your thread.. Sorry bit clueless as what to use and what's not necessary. Thanks in advance

[Reefing Madness]

Take a look at my album pictures. I have a 240g tank, I do not run a filter on my system. I run a skimmer and 240lbs of Live Rock(base rock mix), thats it. the biologicals in the Live Rock and Sand(crushed coral) feed off of them elements in the water column. The skimmer removes nutrients in the water also, before they can become an issue, thats why I advise people to get a Skimmer at twice their water volume. A Sump helps clean the water even more. You can grow maco algae in it, utilize a Deep Sand Bed, and other things, and all those will remove even more nutrients in the water column, example, Nitrates, Phosphates. No bio balls, no filter. I have just set up an internal fuge in my tank to grow Cheato, so that I don't have to dose vodka anymore, and to help remove the rest of my phosphates, all done naturally. No filter....... Might advise people to keep one on hand just in case you need to run GFO or Carbon.

[theawesomeguy]

If I didn't get a sump, had about 2 inches of live sand, the mix of base and live rock we established above, and then this protein skimmer: Protein Skimmer for Saltwater: Aquarium Systems SeaClone Protein Skimmer at Petco would that be enough to keep the tank clean (without a sump or a mechanical filter)? This skimmer was a bit cheaper than other skimmers I've found, but it says it's for a much larger tank so I thought it'd be better? I'm sorry for the really nit-picky questions, I just want to go into this thing knowing exactly what I should buy.

[Reefing Madness]

Almost. That skimmer will have to go, its really a bad skimmer. I would suggest, Reef Octopus, Deltec, Coralife Super SKimmer 125, Bubble Magus, Hydor, EShopps PSK100. AquaMaxx. Then your ready to roll.

[theawesomeguy]

Should I get the 65 gallon one from Hydor: Hydor Slim-Skim Protein Skimmer at PETCO or this 65g one from coralife: Coralife Super Skimmer Needle Wheel Protein Skimmers at PETCO ? Why is the coralife so much more expensive? Am I paying for a name or does it actually do something that I need? How often would I need to change the water with either of these?

Thanks again for your time

[atlanticreef]

Thanks reefing. I have a v2 400 skimmer on my tank but I unset it up because I couldn't get it set up properly and was worried because it was just filling the collection cup up very quickly. Its rated just over double the capacity I need which I suppose is a good thing. The return pump I got with it is a rio 2100. Any help in getting this properly set up will be much appreciated. I'm my two canister filters I ran carbon in both of them..

[Reefing Madness]

Should I get the 65 gallon one from Hydor: Hydor Slim-Skim Protein Skimmer at PETCO or this 65g one from coralife: Coralife Super Skimmer Needle Wheel Protein Skimmers at PETCO ? Why is the coralife so much more expensive? Am I paying for a name or does it actually do something that I need? How often would I need to change the water with either of these?

Thanks again for your time

Hydor makes a better skimmer. How often you change the water depends on the water parameters. I dose Vodka in my tank, and my parameters never budge off of 0, so I do a water change about every 2-3 months.

[Reefing Madness]

Thanks reefing. I have a v2 400 skimmer on my tank but I unset it up because I couldn't get it set up properly and was worried because it was just filling the collection cup up very quickly. Its rated just over double the capacity I need which I suppose is a good thing. The return pump I got with it is a rio 2100. Any help in getting this properly set up will be much appreciated. I'm my two canister filters I ran carbon in both of them..

You want to dial it down in the first week you have it going, all skimmers come with a resin on them, and this will take some time to come off. Or you just give it a bath in vineagar and water to help that along. Then once its going yoiu want the bubbles into the lower area of the neck, once you have it there for a few days you fine tune it. So you need to turn the water level adjustment knob until the bubbles back down into the neck.