[gramma royale]

Hey all,

I'm sorry to say that I've failed at keeping my reef fish alive
My royal gramma and cherub angelfish died from ich. They battled it for several weeks, but succumbed to it last night. I've made water changes and fed them live food, but they just couldn't pull out of it.
I don't know why they got ich. I changed the water once every week for 10%. Anyhow, should I wait a couple weeks before adding just ONE fish? This fish will probably be my only fish. Thanks

[Reefland]

Sorry to hear of your loss. How long were they in your aquarium? Were there any new additions during the time you noticed the ICH?

Anyhow, garlic can be an effective means of battling Marine ICH. A quick search gave me a thread in which the_blue_tuna provided this link.
http://www.geocities.com/horge1218/garlic.html

Scott

[gramma royale]

well, I think I may have added the fish way to quickly. i probably should have waited a couple more weeks, until the tank was fully cycled It's my fault, at least I know my mistakes. Thanks for the link.

[Reefland]

You didn't mention the tank was new in your original post. What are the parameters?

If it is new and still cycling, I wouldn't put anything in there for several more weeks. Wait a few weeks after your test kits show the cycle has completed to be extra safe. Even then, 1 fish at a time would be much better for a new tank.

Best of luck,
Scott

[gramma royale]

well, the tank isn't new anymore. When I put my first fish in there, it was about 3 weeks old. Ammonia at the time was at about .025 ppm. I thought it was low enough since I had really good LR and such. My mistake. Well, about how long should I wait now to restock? The parameters are all zeroed out except for nitrate, which is around 25-30 ppm. My main concern is the ich. Will it eventually die out? Or will it always be in my tank?

[ravenmore]

IMO ich will almost always be in a tank, especially a reef tank. However, if the fish aren't stressed then their immune system should be able to handle it with out too much of a problem. I think you were right that the fish were introduced too quickly. You always want your ammonia levels to be 0. Same with Nitrite and you want your nitrates as low as possible. Anything more can stress the fish, lower their immune system, and then pow, ich outbreak.

Some other points. Filter feeders, such as fanworms, sponges and clams can help remove some of the free floating stage of the ich parasite from the water column, thereby providing some biological control of the parasite. (you can encourage these to grow by feeding DT's phyto and adding smaller sizes of golden pearls).

Also, you can add some cleaner organisms. My favorites are neon gobies and cleaner shrimps. Stay away from cleaner wrasses as their survival rate in home aquaria is dismal and their numbers are rapidly being depleted in the wild.

Also, I wouldn't add angels to your tank for quite a while. I'd start with hardier fish.... a pair of clown fish would be a good start.

hth,
-Mike

[gramma royale]

cool. Thanks for the info guys. Just one more question about fan worms and sponges. How hardy are they? I've heard some bad things about them. Stuff like when they die, they can seriously pollute the water since they release all their bodily fluids, much like a cuke. Is this true? Also, should I wait a while before adding them? I'm planning on adding the fan worms and sponges first, to reduce the ich pop, then introduce fish a couple weeks later. Thanks again for the info guys.

[Mikeman]

I highly reccomend a neon gobie, as they are very small, and don't add much to your bioload

[ravenmore]

Yep, neon gobys rock. If you get a pair they'll breed, although the fry aren't likely to make it unless you make special efforts to raise them. They pretty inexpensive and make good tank mates. They do have a short lifespan though - only 1 to 2 years.

If you have live rock you'll likely have a myriad of fanworms and sponges already hitchiking on the live rock. They will grow and reproduce as your tank matures.

Some ornamental sponges you can buy are very delicate and what you said is correct. I generally avoid them. I would focus your attention on supplementing your hitchikers though and encourage their numbers to grow. Dt's Phytoplankton will greatly help this along. Natural selection of sorts will ensure that the species of these that are suitable for your system will survive.

-Mike

[organicreefer]

i do not agree that ich will almost always be in youre tank,it has to be introduced.now that ich is in youre tank i reccomend you keep it completely fish free for AT LEAST three weeks.

[gramma royale]

I plan on doing just that. I still have a yellow watchman goby and he looks healthy so far. I pray that he remains ich free. Since the ich parasites breed in the sand bed, I purchased some more nassarius snails. Hopefully they will consume the parasites while they are digging through the sand. I won't add anymore fish for another three or for weeks. I'll continue my weekly water changes, however, and we'll see how it turns out after that. Thanks for the advice and info guys.

[organicreefer]

since you still have a fish in youre tank,the ich may live on,and as ravenmore said,"if the fish aren't stressed then their immune system should be able to handle it with out too much of a problem."
be extra cautious(dont let the NEXT fish you add cost you youre paycheck )

[organicreefer]

and the PACIFIC cleaner wrasse(labroides dimidiatus(sp?)is an excellent addition to any marine fish collection.they generally accept any food,and are the most active cleaners you can have in youre tank imo, ime.

[ravenmore]

sorry, gotta strongly big time disagree with that last post. Most cleaner wrasses won't eat anything but parasites. There are exceptions, but they are typically not the norm. Don't just take my word for it. Ask other people who are considered experts. Bob Fenner would be good - I think you might be able to submit a question to him via FF Express. I have experience in this matter as well. The wrasses are being removed from the wild faster than they are reproducing - it affects the ecosystem of the reef pretty major when they are removed. Neon gobys clean every bit as well as cleaner wrasses, they breed in captivity, and are less expensive. They're also hogs... mine even ate in the bag while they were acclimating.

Please stay away from the cleaner wrasses, in my mind there is nothing worse than watching a fish starve to death and not being able to do anything about it.

Also, nassarius snails probably won't eat the ich in the sand bed.

[organicreefer]

ravenmore,
how many cleaner wrasses have you owned?

[organicreefer]

and you are right about MOST cleaner wrasses,im talking about labroides dimidiatus

[ravenmore]

One - it died from apparent starvation.

2 friends each had one - they each died of apparent starvation.

A lfs that I frequented(nearly daily) experimented with 3 in their systems to clean incoming fish. 2 perished over approx. 2 months from what appeared to be starvation and the 3rd was eaten by a lion fish.

None of the above would eat any other offered foods.

I have heard of individual cleaning wrasses sometimes taking other foods. I haven't had such luck nor do I know anyone personally who has.

Sorry, but as you can tell I feel pretty strongly about this. These fish are not terribly prolific in the wild, and a lot of fish from what I understand (I'm not, after all a marine biologist studying cleaner wrasses ) depend on their services. When they're removed it leaves a big gap in the natural order of things that isn't readily replaced.

[ravenmore]

I'll admit I'm no expert at differentiating between different species of cleaner wrasse.... it is possible that the ones I'm talking about were not labroides dimidiatus. Unfortunately most LFS' don't differentiate between them either.

Seriously, the neon goby meets the same need and it doesn't have any of the problems associated with cleaner wrasses. It's also less expensive and can be captive bred. IMO for these reasons I'd recommend it much more highly.

Sorry to get up on my high horse. I'm not meaning to hack anyone off, just voicing my opinion.

-Mike

[organicreefer]

do you realize how many other things pick parasites on the reef?i wouldnt consider it a gap hard to fill....and as for them being removed faster than they can multiply,i dont think ive read this specifically,i think i read somwhere that they shouldnt be rmoved from the reef "because they perform an invaluable service to fish on the reef"or something to that effect.i think there are four species of cleaner wrasse ,and all do poorly in captivity ,except labroides dimidiatus.ive owned three,all eat everything i give them and are pigs(one is dead,i think a sally lightfoot ate him,after 10 months in my tank).i know of 2 others in my freinds tanks that eat anything and are doing great .one has been in my best freinds tank for almost a year ,and growing.

[organicreefer]

and ravenmore,
i just checked out youre site for the first time.all i have to say is...nice aquascape!