[Mikeman]

still you might have had success in your lfs, but they are probably just being collected from the same area over and over again, so the cleaner wrasses from say the cayman islands may take food more readily from one near the virgin islands,

Its off topic but I saw a show where hundreds of sharks would gather around in this isolated rock in the sea where cleaner wrasses lived. But with over fishing, and oil drilling the cleaner wrasses disappeared, so did the sharks.


Another thing to consider,neon gobies eat parasites off fish, they are small attractive and don't add much to the bioload, that and the are Home Bred

[Ironreef]

My point is most die before they reach the lfs. The ones that make it maybe hardier, may take foods but killing 9 for 1 good one ..I buy neon gobies for that reason

[organicreefer]

ironreef,you keep saying 9 out 10 die before they reach the lfs,where did you get that info.i have not been able to find anything that says that anywhere.its hard to beleive that they could have sooo many losses on this species,and still charge 6 bucks for it

[Ironreef]

That just what my LFS gets from there wholesaler. So that could just be urban legand also. http://www.amdareef.com/ they rate them hard to keep also. Most ppl rated them hard to keep. PPL who do marine animals for a living. I would think there would be some accuracy there? $6 a fish just means theres many there. Captive cost more but you know how urban legands are some ppl still like cortal vital. But I've had fish for along time and usually hear ppl complain about cleaners dying. More than how easy they are. I never buy them so I have no eperiance with them

[organicreefer]

they rate all the cleaners the same.this is the problem i have, l dimidiatus is being lumped in with the rest of the genus it is hard to beleive that thes "experts" wouldnt know better,the OTHER cleaner wrasses are nearly impossible to keep,EVEN IF l dimidiatus was a little difficult,so they shouldnt be rated the same imo.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by David
For me it's not a question of the fish being good in your tank, it's a matter of ethics. I have heard too many times the suggestion that removing these fish from the wild is devastating to a reef community. There are LFS in my area that refuse to buy or sell them because they strongly believe this to be true. Why risk it? We have tank raised neon gobies for pete's sake! IMO this fish is yet another candidate for "the list".

My sentiments exactly!

This is what Robert Fenner has to say on this topic in his book The Conscientious Marine Aquarist:

"Labroides is one of the wrasse family's 60 genera, with 5 described species. The most commonly available is L. dimidiatus, the Bluestreak or Common Cleaner Wrasse. The other four have other colors, and cost much more. None of these should be offered to the hobby. Hawaii banned its endemic cleaner wrasse, L. phthirophagus, from collection in 1996.

The main reason that these fishes should remain in the ocean is symbiosis . Cleaning symbiosis involves two different species getting together for mutual advantage -- the host having parasites and necrotic tissue removed and the cleaner deriving nutrition and probably protection from the host.

Cleaners are further classified as being obligate or facultative. Facultative cleaners do their cleaning and therefore receive nutrients more or less as a sideline, able and willing to seek other nonparasitic food sources. There are many examples of these facultative part-timers; several angelfishes and butterflyfishes as juveniles, and the Senorita Wrasse (Oxyjulis californica). Obligates, like the Labroides wrasses, get all or virtually all their nutrition from their cleaning activity -- various species set up permanent cleaning stations with customer hosts coming in for regular grooming. Experimental removal of some of these cleaners in the wild has demonstrated their immense importance as parasite controls. Local and even large pelagic fish populations are quickly and negatively impacted by their removal. Fish populations drop or migrate, and remaining fishes lose fitness as measured by increased external parasite loads, sores, and torn fins.

If you're looking for a biological cleaner for their services or novel behavior, consider obtaining shrimps in the genera Lysmata or Periclimenes, or try cleaner gobies. They do the job, they thrive in captivity, they are prolific breeders in the wild, and their collection has much less of a deleterious effect on reef ecosystems.

Think about this every time you cast your vote by buying livestock intelligently at the fish store. The obligate cleaner Labroides wrasses should remain in the ocean , and you should knowingly spend your money on hardier species."

Here is something from Coral Reef Ecology by Yuri Sorokin:

"Another extremely widespread kind of fish symbiosis is cleaning, performed by several specialized species of cleaner fish. They clean their fish clients from ectoparasites, from microbial overgrowths, and remove dead tissues. The cleaner fish feeds on this scraped material, thus contributing to the health of their clients. Reef fish live in warm waters and are readily attacked by numerous parasites, molds and bacteria. Parasite density is among the important factors regulating the density of their fish hosts (Allard and Lester 1988). Therefore, cleaning is one of the most vital of their needs and life functions (Feder 1966). The fish pay close attention to this procedure and even select their migration routes depending on the position of the 'cleaner stations,' where the cleaner fish live and 'work.'

An important role of cleaning symbiosis was proved experimentally. On a small reef all cleaners had been cleaned out. Several days later the fish started to leave the reef. Within two weeks most of the fish, except the strictly territorial ones (living in nests or holes) abandoned this reef. Among the fish that remained the percentage of ill specimens drastically increased.

The ill fish spend at the 'cleaner stations' as much time as they spend in feeding, going there several times a day. At the station lines 'of fish waiting for service' often occur and between the 'clients' quarrels break out (Feder 1966). It was discovered that good places for fishing on the reef often happen to be precisely the cleaner stations, where many fish wait for the cleaning procedure. So the cleaners could be considered a key species in the reef-fish communities. Without them their very existence would be endangered. "

Ninong

[jwtrojan44]

A key issue overloked on this thread is the impact on the fish populations when cleaner wrasses are harvested. A wrasse that helps control parasitic infestations on wild reef species is an invaluable asset. If the numbers are depleted, would it not stand to reason that there would/could be a marked increase in these parasites on the fish population. I think this has been one of the most compelling arguments for leaving cleaner wrasses in the ocean. FWIW, I had one for several months and it did great and too. ate everything on the menu. I traded it to the lfs. I now have cleaner shrimp and a neon goby who do a bang-up job keeping everyone spic and span. JWT

[The_Bandit]

Cleaner Wrasse Labroides dimidiatus has little, if any, effect on the "Ich" parasite as they normal feed on gnathid larvae. I'm not sure how effective Cleaner Shrimp (Lysmata amboinensis) are in the control of "Ich", but I doubt they are of much use.

The best form of defence against fish disease is good husbandry and adequate quarantine.

That said, they are a great fish, but don't get them expecting them to keep your other tank mates free of Ich.

[organicreefer]

ninong,
better read a little furhter ,L.DIMIDIATUS is considered A FACULTATIVE CLEANER.
all of the OTHER labroides are considered obligate.

[organicreefer]

also ,so far i see we have a bunch of poeple(ALL OF THOSE WITH PERSONAL EXPERIENCES ,I MIGHT ADD )who say they are doing great.and then we have a bunch of people AGAINST them,who are working with second hand knowledge.id like to hear from someone who had an l.dimidiatus that did not eat,if any exist.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by organicreefer
ninong,
better read a little furhter ,L.DIMIDIATUS is considered A FACULTATIVE CLEANER.
all of the OTHER labroides are considered obligate.

Excuse me?

Where in the world did you get that idea?

All five species of Labroides wrasses are obligate cleaners!!! Whether they accept food in an aquarium or not does not change their status.

Labroides dimidiatus is the most common cleaner in the Indo-Pacific region and it is most certainly an obligate cleaner and NOT a facultative cleaner.

Ninong

[organicreefer]

from robert fenners article on the genus:"black and white lined Labroides dimidiatus is the one species that seems more facultative"
and ninong where are all the disaster stories,of people buying 5 cleaners that all refused to eat and they starved.havent seen one yet.all i see is alot of hear
-say

[organicreefer]

also id like to point out that fenner is VERY much AGAINST the collection of this species,and also says that 1 in a 1000 lives a year in captivity,i guess i won the lottery three times in a row i have two freinds that also won nobody seems to EVER LOSE AT THIS GAME

[Ninong]

Originally posted by organicreefer
from robert fenners article on the genus:"black and white lined Labroides dimidiatus is the one species that seems more facultative"
and ninong where are all the disaster stories,of people buying 5 cleaners that all refused to eat and they starved.havent seen one yet.all i see is alot of hear
-say

Well, if you want to quote Fenner, why not read page 282 of his book: "Obligates, like the Labroides wrasses, get all or virtually all their nutrition from their cleaning activity."

It is true that Labroides dimidiatus also eats zooplankton and microcrustaceans in the wild, too, but it's primary function is as an obligate cleaner, and that is where it gets virtually all of its nutrition in the wild.

If you search the literature, you can find the exact studies that have been done on the the GBR that measure this and measure the effects of removal of this species.

"For instance, the parasite removal rates of the many cleaner fish can be extremely high. The cleaner wrasse Labroides dimidiatus was found to remove 1200 parasites per day, or, 60 parasites per client fish per day (Grutter, 1996a). Clearly, it is easy to assume that the removal of such a high number of parasites must bring some form of benefit to client hosts.

Similarly, many client species spend considerably large amount of time at cleaning stations. Adult rabbit fish have been found to spend up to thirty minutes per day being cleaned (Grutter, 1995). Bearing in mind that many client species exhibit an 'invitation pose', thought to elicit a cleaning response by the cleaner fish, this indicates that clients elect to be cleaned rather than spend their time carrying out other important functions such as feeding, courting and mating. Surely some compensatory benefit must be gained from being cleaned."

Anyway, that's a quote that gives the parasitic consumption rate of Labroides dimidiatus.

Whether or not you choose to keep these fish in your aquarium does not change their status as obligate cleaners. Nor does it change the opinions of some that it is a lousy idea.

Ninong

P.S. - Boy, you really had to search hard to dig up that "more facultative" comment. It's at the very end of his article on his website, after he tells you a dozen times that he is against the collection of these fish:

" So, Finally the Wrasses in the Genus Labroides!

This is the genus of obligate Cleaner Wrasses most celebrated for establishing stations in the wild that are frequented by "local" reef fishes and pelagics for removing parasites and necrotic tissue. Perhaps shocking to most aquarists, all the Labroides rate a dismal (3) in survivability, even the ubiquitously offered common or Blue Cleaner Wrasse, Labroides dimidiatus. None of the Labroides should be removed, not only for the fact that almost all perish within a few weeks of wild capture, but for the valuable role they play as cleaners."

I guess he means that some individuals manage to adjust their dietary habits to suit the available conditions in the aquarium... some, but not all. And that still doesn't affect the arguments against removing them from the wild, nor does it change the opinions of most of the so-called experts, including Scott Michael, that this species usually does not do well in home aquariums. Maybe you should write your own book.

[organicreefer]

ninong,
he wrote the article AFTER he wrote his book,not to mention that the article is much more in depth and specific.i also have ANOTHER book in front of me ,the marine fish survival guide,that says that l dimidiatus is an ecxellent aquarium choice,and goes as far as to say that it should be on everyones stocking list


point being even "experts" disagree.

as far as writing my own book ,i guess an individual should write about EXPERIENCES.......

point being THERE IS STILL NOT ONE PERSON WHO HAS POSTED THAT THEY HAD L DIMIDIATUS AND IT WOULDNT EAT....only hear- say,AND positive experiences..

..

i bought 2 cleaner wrasses about a year ago ,before i "knew better" and have had nothing but a most positive exp. every thread i have seen on the wrasses say the same thing...they will starve ,but inevitably it seems,everyone who says this HAS NEVER EVEN OWNED ONE.and there are almost always repleis from poeple who say they have one and he eats everything

it seems that almost everytime a respected author states that labroides do not do well in captivity ,they are generalizing the whole genus....

i started the thread to find out if the "rumor "that l dimidiatus does not do well in captivity is just the "pollitically correct" thing to say,or if there was any truth to it until i start hearing of some ACTUAL failures with l dimidiatus,im going to consider writing that book......

[Ninong]

The quote in my postscript above is from that article, not the book. He hasn't changed his mind.

Ninong

[organicreefer]

no reply to my other points...in a nutshell where are all the dead wrasses?

[Ninong]

My only point has to do with whether or not they should be collected in the first place. If you want responses to your original question, I suggest you post the same question to Reef Central. This topic has come up over there several times and I guarantee you that you will get lots of replies. Reefland, by comparison, is really a small board with usually only 10 to 20 members online at a time.

Ninong

P.S. - Since you seem so interested in dead wrasses, here's a post by Stars 360 to Reef Central on 7/23/01:

one more vote on not getting the cleaner wrasses.....

listen learn from my downfall. before i knew about this board i killed about a half dozen of them or so, and i am not proud of it.... i wish i had access to this board then, then i would of not made the mistake to take the poor fishes lives.


p.s. just blowin off some steam, and not really subject releated but i work in a lfs, and i absolutly hate it when customers say well i will just try it i will only lose $xx.xxamount of money. i feel like saying no you will not just be losing that but you will be killing another one of g-ds creations because of your stupidity...... sorry guys just needed to get that off my chest...


__________________
Brian

[Ninong]

Originally posted by organicreefer:

also have ANOTHER book in front of me ,the marine fish survival guide,that says that l dimidiatus is an ecxellent aquarium choice,and goes as far as to say that it should be on everyones stocking list

OK, inquiring minds what to know: who wrote that book? Don't tell me it was Gordon Kay and Nick Dakin??? The same Nick Dakin who claims that clownfish should not be kept in aquariums without the appropriate host anemone.

Ninong

[Ninong]

Looks like someone already posted the exact same topic title to Reef Central several months back:

"Cleaner Wrasse - Yes or No" (amazing coincidence, huh?): http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...cleaner+wrasse

This is an even better thread on cleaner wrasses on Reef Central (warning, it is a very long thread): http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...threadid=12319

Ninong