[Jack G]

FWIW, I've had mine for about 8 years. he will eat anything I feed him. As for cleaning, I honstly think cleaner shrimp work better, but he does try.
enjoy,
Jack

[organicreefer]

welcome to reefland jack g.thanks for sharing youre exp!i tend to VALUE EXP OVER HEAR-SAY,AND 35 YEAR OLD STUDIES TALK ABOUT 'DIGGING DEEP " NINONG

[Jack G]

[



>>>USE NEON CLEANER GOBIES INSTEAD!!!<<<

I don't think so.
For one thing, they aren't very good cleaners-especially captive bred ones. Secondly, they ARE prone to ick.
If you don't want wrasses, get the shrimp.
Jack

[Ironreef]

almost every neon gobie I've purchase cleaned fish even captive prop. I never had a clearner shrimp clean in my tank. I've seen in others but never in my tank. I belive the point is not as much ecological but ask a wholesaler if they have 200 wrasses and only 20 survive. if these 20 are hardy and make it to the lfs then live along time is it really worth the 180 dead ones? Any fish collected with a low survival rate shouldn't be cauhght= poweder blue ect... Not even a 50/50v survival rate. Now you need to ask more than one wholesaler to get an accurate count or estimate this is just what I'm told 90% die. So is a cleaner wrasse worth it? IMO no as well as any other fish

[Ninong]

Originally posted by organicreefer

SO NINONG, HOW IS L DIMIDIATUS CLASSIFIED?

Labroides dimidiatus is not a part-time cleaner. It does not engage in cleaning behavior only as a juvenile. It is a full-time cleaner that gets most of its nutrition from its cleaning activities. Whether or not some individuals may be able to adapt to other foods in captivity does not change the fact that it is an obligate cleaner. An aquarium is not natural environment and fish are not classified based on their behavior in captivity, but rather they are classified based on their behavior in their natural environment.

L. dimidiatus is an obligate cleaner.

Ninong

P.S. - Here is Scott Michael's opinion on this question:

"Cleaner fishes can be divided into two distinct groups. The species that do not depend entirely on this feeding strategy are known as facultative cleaners. For example, most of the juvenile hogfishes (genus Bodianus) set up cleaning stations and pick parasites off of fish clients on a "part-time" basis. The majority of cleaners fall into the facultative category. Most of these species only engage in cleaning during the juvenile stage of their life cycle.

Those species that depend on this feeding mode for all their nutrients are known as obligatory cleaners. The cleaner wrasses (genus Labroides) are examples of "full-time" cleaners. These species also clean throughout their lives. Obligatory cleaners spend a large portion of the daylight hours inspecting and ingesting parasites."

[organicreefer]

didnt fenner say the species was betwixt obligate and facultative?or do i need my vision checked
jackg,good man for standing up as a wrasse owner,all the other wrasse owners left me here to die alone

[Ninong]

Originally posted by organicreefer:
or do i need my vision checked

Your vision seems to be improving. You finally noticed the bubble gum that was stuck to your Caps Lock key.

You will have to ask Bob Fenner what he meant. You may be misreading his comments.

Every published authority refers to all of the Labroides wrasses as obligate cleaners. And I am not just referring to the so-called "hobby" authors.

Ninong

Ref: Randall, J.E., G.R. Allen and R.C. Steene, 1990. Fishes of the Great Barrier Reef and Coral Sea. University of Hawaii Press, Honolulu, Hawaii.
Page: 325

Ref: Sorokin, Y.I., 1995. Coral Reef Ecology. Springer, Berlin, Germany.
Page: 245

Grant, E.M. 1978. Guide to Fishes. The Department of Harbours and Marine, Brisbane, Queensland.

Marshall, Tom. 1966. Tropical Fishes of the Great Barrier Reef. Angus and Robertson LTD, Sydney.

Marshall, Tom C. 1964. Fishes of the Great Barrier Reef and coastal waters of Queensland. Angus and Robertson LTD, Sydney.

Roughley, T.C. 1951. Fish and Fisheries of Australia. Angus & Robertson LTD, Sydney.

Smith, J.L.B. 1965. The Sea of Fishes of Southern Africa, 5th Edition. Central News Agency LTD, South Africa.

[organicreefer]

[quote]Originally posted by Ninong
[b]Originally posted by organicreefer:
or do i need my vision checked

Your vision seems to be improving. You finally noticed the bubble gum that was stuck to your Caps Lock key.



its either on or off im working with two fingers here gimme a break

[ConnieH]

organic reefer,

I've HAD two (not at the same time). They both died in my tank after 2 -3 weeks, never having eaten. I finally got wise, and decided to read up on the species (duh! Like you... sometimes a house has to fall on my head)!

I won't have another. Those who are successful with cleaners are in the minority, whether or not you want to admit it, and regardless of your "survey." Even so, the damage done to the natural reefs by collecting the cleaner wrasse is not worth your attention? I think you're missing the point.

ConnieH (aka carolina98)

Get Involved!
www.masna.org

[mrok12]

Originally posted by David
For me it's not a question of the fish being good in your tank, it's a matter of ethics. I have heard too many times the suggestion that removing these fish from the wild is devastating to a reef community. There are LFS in my area that refuse to buy or sell them because they strongly believe this to be true. Why risk it? We have tank raised neon gobies for pete's sake! IMO this fish is yet another candidate for "the list".

I think this is a very good point. Their are some wrasses thar are obligate cleaners and will die in an aquarium. The hawaiian cleaner wrasse According to tulluck is one such species. He furrther suggst that all obligate cleaner wrasses not be collected. I say stick to the wrasses that have a history of success in the aqurium, like the fairy wrass or the six line wrasse. These are my thoughts, not necessarily the correct ones though.

PEACE BROTHERS AND SISTERS

MROK12

[VP]

Mine were all labroides dimidiatus. As far as it being "my fault" that they died, I realize this is possible and there could be something about my aquarium that the cleaners don't like but I am successful at keeping other fish and corals alive and this leads me to believe that, as the literature states, this fish does not fare well in the majority of aquariums. I've been in the SW hobby for approx. 3 years and have had a maroon clown for three years, porky puffer for 2 years, hippo tang 2 years, flame angel 2 years, and a yellow tailed damsel for over 2 years. I had a couple of deaths when I was new in the hobby. I didn't get the cleaners until my tank was fully cycled and stable. On the Salt Water Aquarium board, which is no longer on-line, there were dozens of people reporting the quick deaths of these fish. Just FYI.

[ravenmore]

both of my neon gobies clean well also. Like I mentioned, even my pacific species fish present themselves to these little atlantic species cleaner. These are species of fish that do not normally have contact in the wild. The neons are quite obliging.

[organicreefer]

Originally posted by ConnieH
organic reefer,

I've HAD two (not at the same time). They both died in my tank after 2 -3 weeks, never having eaten.

Even so, the damage done to the natural reefs by collecting the cleaner wrasse is not worth your attention? I think you're missing the point.
www.masna.org

doesnt sound like starvation to me.
why dont you try reading the whole thread,cleaner wrasses being taken from the wild are NOT affecting the reefs,in my and some "expert"opinions.time to wake up

[organicreefer]

VP,i am sorry for singleing you out.i didnt mean to say it was 'youre fault:.i also said it may have been youre supplier.


its still like 24 successes to 4 failures

i was SURE we had moved beyond whether cleaner wrasses do well in captivity,ime they are a hardy species .anyone whos opinion has been at least a little altered about that fact is just blind ,or isnt reading the whole thread

[saltjunkie]

I am by no means an expert here. I will chime in though. I am also sure my response will be cut and pasted somehow to look bad or like i was agreeing with the total oposite person.
Disclaimer:
This post by me (saltjunkie) is copy writed and may not be used in any manner by any one, other than the original poster, me (saltjunkie)
When I was relatively new to the hobby, 2 or 3 years, I tried my hand at the cleaners, both died. The fish store in which I have friends, continues to buy and sell these fish, even though imo, most do not make it out alive and some come in dead. Not sure how you want to score this on the score card.
By the way, your scorecard seems to be like an elementary kickball game. Every time the score is posted, you have more points and we have fewer.
This isnt about keeping score. Yes you and your friends have kept 35 (scoring like you) of these alive. But from reading this thread only, there is evidence of this fish, its main function, diet and behavior all the way back to 1951. Are all these people in all these years wrong?
Yes things change as time goes on, lessons learned and ideas and info change. And tech. advances the way things are done.
But from around 1951- 2001, the historical documentation and study on these fish have come down to almost the same conclusions about it.
These are just my ideas and opinions, nothing more.
I will not buy these fish and I always ask my friend not to buy them.
Next:
Rick

[ravenmore]

Saltjunkie makes a point about the "scoring" which is absolutely silly and not an accurate measurement of the overall survivability of these species(and by my accounts your scoring is simply wrong). The most accurate measurement would be a ratio of how many survive from being collected to surviving in home aquariums. Several experts have chimed in and indicated that all of these wrasses have extemely low survival rates when compared to the total fish who were collected. These are folks who have experiencence with the trade from the point of collection all the way to the retail shops. It's foolish not to value their accounts.

Organicreefer, you are basing your entire argument on what you have seen with your own eyes, but the truth here lies in what you have not seen with your eyes - it lies in the # of fish collected that do not survive in tanks.

I'm done with this thread folks - I think I've exhausted every bit of logic and truth on it. Organicreefer is simply ignoring what is said or, again as Saltjunkie mentions, is taking what is said out of context to support his/her argument.

And Organicreefer, you have 1 study indicating that removing cleaners doesn't affect the ecosystem of a reef. Tell the whole truth. There are many other scientist who disagree with this study. I think Ninong listed quite a few.

Again, lastly, don't buy these animals. They are not hardy. The vast majority of them collected do not survive even all the way to the retail shops. There are other animals that ARE hardy and perform the same function and are even less expensive.

-Mike out

[organicreefer]

ravenmore you say im ignoring what YOU say
i feel the exact opposite9dont forget its me against everyone,im being buried
as far as me beleiving what i see / exp.,youre right
as far as this thread is concerned im done as well,if it was going to be resolved it would have been by now.
truth be known there is no right and wrong answer here.i count way more successes,regardless of how you score it .
if you cant admit that this topic is one 'still open for debate',youre a fool,or a liar,imo

[Ninong]

organicreefer ~

You won't advance your arguments by calling someone who disagrees with you "a fool or a liar." I'm sure that he is neither.

And it is not a matter of you against everyone, or anyone. People who disagree with your conclusions are not against you.

Others who read this thread can consider what everyone has posted and draw their own conclusions.

Ninong

[organicreefer]

youre right ninong,this is one that comes down to personal decision.sorry if i offended anyone with that statement

[Triggers]

it's a hit or miss.
many do die during shipment and many do die at lfs, i have seen many lying on the bottom thin as paper.
the different species you mention some being hardier than others, well if you can tell the difference, great, if not then its up to the place of purchase to label them accuretly. you know the probability of that.
i have owned 3.
2 disappeared after about a year. one i found under stand.
they seemed to have eaten pretty good while i had them. this was couple of years ago.

been having trouble with ick and my red sea raccoon. so thought i would try another. kind of hard to find them now.
the one i got was pretty fat and active.
from the time i got home it wasted away in less than 2 months. really wasn't to interested in any food offered. would occassionally pick at the fish.
not sure if i would get another.