Question for HVAC specialists - Tank Cooling Idea

ATLANTIS · 05-06-2001, 04:02 PM

COOLING:

A major problem for reefers.

A fellow reefer gave me an idea the other day. I wanted to ask the feasibility of some HVAC people.

The concept works something like a heat pump I think.

Dig a whole or a trench outside.
Place tubing or PVC in the whole/trench (there are many possible configurations)
Connect that tubing/PVC to either your tank circulation system or another length of tubing that can run through your sump like a radiator.
Cover the whole/trench with earth

Pump water or tank water through the tubing....

This would work like a heat pump

cheaper than a chiller!!!

This will be called The Atlantis Aquatics Heat Exchange Chiller TM [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

This could work for both chilling and heating.... I Think!

My question

How deep does the trench or whole need to be to tank advantage of the natural warmth/cold of the earth?

------------------
Brian
Atlantis Aquatics
Tank Aquacultured Corals
http://atlantisaquatic.com

[This message has been edited by ATLANTIS (edited 05-06-2001).]

JerseyReef · 05-06-2001, 04:20 PM

Brian,
You would need to be at least 2' to 3' down get any cooling effects. If I remember correctly, the earth stays around 60 to 70 deg year round at this depth(That depth number might have to be deeper). This also varies depending on location and soil makeup as well.

------------------
Mike
jerseyreef@home.com

Chicago · 05-06-2001, 04:25 PM

very interesting idea..especially for those who will house sumps in the basement...i am going to foolow up on this idea this week as i am now building my sump in hte basement this week

blue · 05-06-2001, 05:58 PM

My dad is an HVAC contractor actually he owns the buisness but any way he says in some places that actually uses this for heating/cooling of houses the tubes need to be about 10 to 15 ft to be able to take full advantage of this technique.
[img]/ubb/flames.gif[/img]Blue[img]/ubb/flames.gif[/img]

------------------
Think befor you speak or dont speak at all!!!

Randy Holmes-Farley · 05-07-2001, 05:04 AM

I do a similar thing, except I use tap water. I have a controller than sends cold tap water through a coil of plastic tubing in the sump if the tank gets too warm. The cost is minimal, and I use the water in the yard after it runs through the coil in the sump. The only problem is if you live in a place that has warm tap water (say, over 75 deg F.).

------------------
Randy Holmes-Farley

[This message has been edited by Randy Holmes-Farley (edited 05-07-2001).]

ATLANTIS · 05-08-2001, 01:09 PM

Thanks to everyone who has contributed.....

Here are some of the things I have learned so far.

No one really knows the frost line here [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

I have reports of required depths from 2' to 15'

THE ISSUES:

Surface Area:.......How much surface area of the cooling pipe is really needed?

This might need some true engineering...
My estimate is several hundred feet for my application

Contact Time:.......How long will water be in tube/pipe?

Another engineering issue
My estimate is the longer the better... so fluid pump should be strong but slow

Pipe Material:......PVC, Copper, Poly Tubing, Titanium [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

PVC ........... Poor Heat Transfer, fairly inexpensive, Limited Flexibility
Copper......... Good Heat Transfer, fairly inexpensive, Very flexible (only good for closed system)
Poly Tubing.... Fair Heat Transfer, fairly inexpensive, Very flexible
Titanium....... Great Heat Transfer, Very expensive, fairly flexible

Type Of System:.....Closed or Open to Sump

Open........... This requires no copper. more issues for circulation when you turn it off... more sump capacity
Closed......... This can use copper outside of sump. indirect cooling

type of pump: internal or external.. flow issues at greater piping lengths

Internal....... Adds heat to system
External....... Does not add heat to system, but adds heat to ambient air

Control:.............How do you turn it on and off as needed? Would bacteria grow in idle system

Heat Controller this can turn flow on and off by controlling the pump. still water problems
Bacteria....... not a real problem in closed system... open system this would be a major issue.

Fluid in Closed System:.antifreeze? (un-safe in case of leak)

antifreeze..... failure of tubing in sump would be a major catastrophe... No purging of system needed in winter. no bacterial growth
water.......... must be purged in winter... can have bacteria grow
Bacteria....... not a real problem in closed system... open system this would be a major issue.

Building codes: is it legal

Legal......... More Paperwork [img]/ubb/frown.gif[/img]

Other Solutions:

Tap water through radiator in sump
RO/DI output through radiator in sump
tubing wrapped around water lines
well water through radiator
Cooling Tower http://www.ctdoc.com/Contents.html
little fridge chiller ( I tried this a while back... it failed miserably)

geothermal links http://www.climatemaster.com/geothermal.htm

I like the "Other Solutions" a lot right now.
I am planning on utilizing 2 of them in combination quite soon.
I will run my RO/DI waste water through tubing wrapped around my water lines and then into a coil in the sump, then outside to the garden. This should be a start.

As far as the heat pump idea, I am leaning towards a closed system.

Poly tubing in a coil in the sump.
PVC inside the house
Copper Outside the house. (I still don't know how much trenching or digging yet). I will further investigate the "frost line" for my area.

------------------
Brian
Atlantis Aquatics
Tank Aquacultured Corals
http://atlantisaquatic.com

ATLANTIS · 05-09-2001, 07:21 AM

Last night I completed Phase 1

I ran my RO/DI waste water through tubing wrapped around my water lines and then into a 70" coil in the sump, then outside to the garden. I insulated the tubing most of the way to the sump.

I sent an email to a geothermal company. I asked what material they made there pipe loops out of. He emailed back and said PE hd pipe.

Well... I had no idea what that meant, but thanks to the web, I quickly looked it up. Polyethylene High Density...

It turns out that the plastic tubing I buy at Lowes for this project is polyethylene.

------------------
Brian
Atlantis Aquatics
Tank Aquacultured Corals
http://atlantisaquatic.com

shoeman · 05-09-2001, 06:12 PM

I have a friend who cools his house the same way, except he runs the outside pipes through a river where the summer temp is 65 to 70 degrees all summer. Money saver huh?

------------------
Go Vols!!!!!!! See my Tanks http://www.zebra.net/~shoeman/fish_tanks.htm

Aquaman · 05-09-2001, 08:03 PM

I've actually given this same idea a lot of thought! my last years summer power bill was averaging $250.

My plan is putting a 40 ft, 1"ID tubing coiled 12" under ground pumped from my sump and back to the sump using a Iwaki 20RLT. My only real problem would be root growth from the oak trees in my yard. To get around this I've decided to layer the trench with small pebble sized rock.

ATLANTIS · 05-15-2001, 06:02 AM

This is an update on Phase 1.

Quote:

I ran my RO/DI waste water through tubing wrapped around my water lines and then into a 70" coil in the sump, then outside to the garden. I insulated the tubing most of the way to the sump.

I have seen a 1 - 2 degree drop in my tanks temps since performing this $5.00 project.

This drop is really all I need at the moment. I will continue to investigate the geothermal process.

------------------
Brian
Atlantis Aquatics
Tank Aquacultured Corals
http://atlantisaquatic.com

saltjunkie · 05-15-2001, 07:34 AM

Keep us updated, as I think that this will be good info for others also!
Thanks for taking the time to do this and reporting your findings to everyone!

05-06-2001, 04:02 PM	#1
ATLANTIS Council Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Dunellen, NJ, USA Posts: 276	Question for HVAC specialists - Tank Cooling Idea COOLING: A major problem for reefers. A fellow reefer gave me an idea the other day. I wanted to ask the feasibility of some HVAC people. The concept works something like a heat pump I think. Dig a whole or a trench outside. Place tubing or PVC in the whole/trench (there are many possible configurations) Connect that tubing/PVC to either your tank circulation system or another length of tubing that can run through your sump like a radiator. Cover the whole/trench with earth Pump water or tank water through the tubing.... This would work like a heat pump cheaper than a chiller!!! This will be called The Atlantis Aquatics Heat Exchange Chiller TM [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] This could work for both chilling and heating.... I Think! My question How deep does the trench or whole need to be to tank advantage of the natural warmth/cold of the earth? ------------------ Brian Atlantis Aquatics Tank Aquacultured Corals http://atlantisaquatic.com [This message has been edited by ATLANTIS (edited 05-06-2001).]

05-08-2001, 01:09 PM	#6
ATLANTIS Council Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Dunellen, NJ, USA Posts: 276	Thanks to everyone who has contributed..... Here are some of the things I have learned so far. No one really knows the frost line here [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I have reports of required depths from 2' to 15' THE ISSUES: Surface Area:.......How much surface area of the cooling pipe is really needed? This might need some true engineering... My estimate is several hundred feet for my application Contact Time:.......How long will water be in tube/pipe? Another engineering issue My estimate is the longer the better... so fluid pump should be strong but slow Pipe Material:......PVC, Copper, Poly Tubing, Titanium [img]/ubb/smile.gif[/img] PVC ........... Poor Heat Transfer, fairly inexpensive, Limited Flexibility Copper......... Good Heat Transfer, fairly inexpensive, Very flexible (only good for closed system) Poly Tubing.... Fair Heat Transfer, fairly inexpensive, Very flexible Titanium....... Great Heat Transfer, Very expensive, fairly flexible Type Of System:.....Closed or Open to Sump Open........... This requires no copper. more issues for circulation when you turn it off... more sump capacity Closed......... This can use copper outside of sump. indirect cooling type of pump: internal or external.. flow issues at greater piping lengths Internal....... Adds heat to system External....... Does not add heat to system, but adds heat to ambient air Control:.............How do you turn it on and off as needed? Would bacteria grow in idle system Heat Controller this can turn flow on and off by controlling the pump. still water problems Bacteria....... not a real problem in closed system... open system this would be a major issue. Fluid in Closed System:.antifreeze? (un-safe in case of leak) antifreeze..... failure of tubing in sump would be a major catastrophe... No purging of system needed in winter. no bacterial growth water.......... must be purged in winter... can have bacteria grow Bacteria....... not a real problem in closed system... open system this would be a major issue. Building codes: is it legal Legal......... More Paperwork [img]/ubb/frown.gif[/img] Other Solutions: Tap water through radiator in sump RO/DI output through radiator in sump tubing wrapped around water lines well water through radiator Cooling Tower http://www.ctdoc.com/Contents.html little fridge chiller ( I tried this a while back... it failed miserably) geothermal links http://www.climatemaster.com/geothermal.htm I like the "Other Solutions" a lot right now. I am planning on utilizing 2 of them in combination quite soon. I will run my RO/DI waste water through tubing wrapped around my water lines and then into a coil in the sump, then outside to the garden. This should be a start. As far as the heat pump idea, I am leaning towards a closed system. Poly tubing in a coil in the sump. PVC inside the house Copper Outside the house. (I still don't know how much trenching or digging yet). I will further investigate the "frost line" for my area. ------------------ Brian Atlantis Aquatics Tank Aquacultured Corals http://atlantisaquatic.com

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05-06-2001, 04:20 PM	#2
JerseyReef Just Moved In Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Moorestown, NJ Posts: 33	Brian, You would need to be at least 2' to 3' down get any cooling effects. If I remember correctly, the earth stays around 60 to 70 deg year round at this depth(That depth number might have to be deeper). This also varies depending on location and soil makeup as well. ------------------ Mike jerseyreef@home.com

05-06-2001, 04:25 PM	#3
Chicago Citizen Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: illinois, usa Posts: 195	very interesting idea..especially for those who will house sumps in the basement...i am going to foolow up on this idea this week as i am now building my sump in hte basement this week

05-06-2001, 05:58 PM	#4
blue Mayor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Denton,TX,USA Posts: 597	My dad is an HVAC contractor actually he owns the buisness but any way he says in some places that actually uses this for heating/cooling of houses the tubes need to be about 10 to 15 ft to be able to take full advantage of this technique. [img]/ubb/flames.gif[/img]Blue[img]/ubb/flames.gif[/img] ------------------ Think befor you speak or dont speak at all!!!

05-07-2001, 05:04 AM	#5
Randy Holmes-Farley Tenant Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Arlington, MA, USA Posts: 65	I do a similar thing, except I use tap water. I have a controller than sends cold tap water through a coil of plastic tubing in the sump if the tank gets too warm. The cost is minimal, and I use the water in the yard after it runs through the coil in the sump. The only problem is if you live in a place that has warm tap water (say, over 75 deg F.). ------------------ Randy Holmes-Farley [This message has been edited by Randy Holmes-Farley (edited 05-07-2001).]

05-09-2001, 07:21 AM	#7
ATLANTIS Council Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Dunellen, NJ, USA Posts: 276	Last night I completed Phase 1 I ran my RO/DI waste water through tubing wrapped around my water lines and then into a 70" coil in the sump, then outside to the garden. I insulated the tubing most of the way to the sump. I sent an email to a geothermal company. I asked what material they made there pipe loops out of. He emailed back and said PE hd pipe. Well... I had no idea what that meant, but thanks to the web, I quickly looked it up. Polyethylene High Density... It turns out that the plastic tubing I buy at Lowes for this project is polyethylene. ------------------ Brian Atlantis Aquatics Tank Aquacultured Corals http://atlantisaquatic.com

05-09-2001, 06:12 PM	#8
shoeman Tenant Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Mobile, AL Posts: 74	I have a friend who cools his house the same way, except he runs the outside pipes through a river where the summer temp is 65 to 70 degrees all summer. Money saver huh? ------------------ Go Vols!!!!!!! See my Tanks http://www.zebra.net/~shoeman/fish_tanks.htm

05-09-2001, 08:03 PM	#9
Aquaman Tenant Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Orlando, FL, USA Posts: 76	I've actually given this same idea a lot of thought! my last years summer power bill was averaging $250. My plan is putting a 40 ft, 1"ID tubing coiled 12" under ground pumped from my sump and back to the sump using a Iwaki 20RLT. My only real problem would be root growth from the oak trees in my yard. To get around this I've decided to layer the trench with small pebble sized rock.

05-15-2001, 07:34 AM	#11
saltjunkie Governor Join Date: May 2000 Location: Lakeland, Fl. Posts: 1,781	Keep us updated, as I think that this will be good info for others also! Thanks for taking the time to do this and reporting your findings to everyone!

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