Losing all our fish!!

[suekey1]

Need some help figuring out what's wrong with our fish. This is our 5th tank and we are now calling it the "tank from hell". If anything could go wrong, it seems to have. Before I continue, I know mistake number one is the number of fish put into the tank and lesson number two is to quarantine, so lessons well learned in that respect.
Here's the problem, in the last two weeks we have lost several very expensive fish. A blue spotted jawfish, a bicolor blennie, a juvenile orange shoulder tang, a juvenile gold rimmed tang, a pajama cardinal and two green chromis. On their way our are two more pajama cardinals and a Jardin tang. It started with what looked like ich on the gold rimmed tang. However, the jawfish never appeared to have ich. It looked as though he may have had velvet...an area on either side of him where the color was completely gone as if he had rubbed off his color. When the orange shoulder tang was in his worst stages, one side of him was completely rubbed off and bloody. Now, the two cardinals left and the Jardin seem to have a fin rot and clouded, peeling eyes. We couldn't catch any of the fish in their beginning stages try as we might. We tried Garlic Extreme to no avail (which has worked tremendously in our other tank against ich). We finally tried Rally at 1/2 strength which seemed to stop any signs of ich. By the way, none of the fish ever stopped eating right up to the day they died.
This is a 125 gallon tank with several acroporas, some leather corals and several stony corals. All water parameters are perfect. In fact, we have bunches of baby turbo snails as a result of promiscuous snails. Needless to say, we don't want to lose the corals, either. We also have a blue linka which is doing extremely well. This tank has been problems right from the start with the equipment, lighting, etc. It may end up being a very large terrarium with a lot of expensive equipment tossed to the side.
If anyone can tell from my explanation what could be going on and how to stop it, please let me know. I don't want to toss several thousands of dollars out the window.
Thanks, Sue

[naser]

i used to never be able to keep any fishes. if i bought even a yellow tang it would die within 2 or 3 weeks. untill i bought a vitamin/hufa supplement. its called reef pure, made by warner marine research. every tang died from ich. now ive keep two tangs with great success.

[BlueWater]

suekey...

What are your water parameters?
Temperature?
Filtration?

Give us ALL your tank specs.

[suekey1]

Bluewater,
Salinity 1.023, no nitrites, nitrates or ammonia. Calc 450, 9KH, no phosphates. Temp avgs 82.
Filter system is a 30 gallon sump (Eurofil 180) with a CPR overflow. Pump is a Gen X MAK 4 and skimmer is a Euroreef G2. Lighting is 6x96 Custom Sealife PCs (72") in fully enclosed hood with fan, and an additional Reef Sun bulb.
We are suspecting the garlic had some bad after affect on the fish. The tang literally lost his eye last night. Seems to have just "melted" though he's still swimming around and eating like a horse. His stripes are hazy looking but it doesn't appear he has anything growing on him. He just looks like hell. I've tried to get a picture of him but he's camera shy!
Is it possible the Garlic Extreme could have burned the fish? We were putting a few drops on seaweed to no avail. Th instructions say you can put it directly in the tank so we did according to directions. That had no effect as well. The only thing that seemed to stop it was the Rally.
Another thing I was thinking about was dyed corals. I read another post regarding the popularity of that. Unfortunately, we too have fallen victim to that. I paid $45 for the most brilliantly yellow large open brain I have ever seen. In less than a week it lost all it's color and died!! I also bought a very bright yellow pagoda that had been in the LFS for over a month. Now come to find out, they were both probably dyed those colors. Maybe what is used to dye them had some effect on the fish?? Who knows.
We have a 55 gallon reef thats been up for over a year in a rather unorthodox manner and thriving tremendously. We also have a beautiful 12 gallon nano with no skimmer that has been up for a year. In fact, it looks better than all the other tanks. We also have a 70 gallon fish only tank that had some major problems with fish fatality but has now settled down and doing well. This 125 was supposed to be set up the "right way", has cost us a small fortune and is nothing but a pain.
Thanks, Sue

[mastaJ]

How long has the tank been set-up? I would forego the fish for awile, a long while until things balance out.

[suekey1]

The tank has been up for almost 6 months now. We lost the Jardin tang last night and one of the pajama cardinals is missing. The other is on it's way out, too. The eyes are clouded up and peeling. I guess at this point we'll just wait it out and who ever makes it, makes it. We'll let it sit for 6 weeks or so and start again. I just hate the thought of losing any more fish. We have a long nosed hawk fish who seems not to be affected at all. I guess he'll be a happy camper for a while. For some reason, it's seeming hawkfish just can't be affected. The one in our quarantine tank is hell on other fish but has survived amazing things!
Thanks

[rededteck]

silly question, but what do you use for top off water in your tank?

[suekey1]

Not a silly question. We use DI water. Never tap water. We have a total of 5 salt tanks: 3 reefs, one fish only and a quarantine turned into a "one fish only" tank. None of the other tanks have a problem. That's why I feel we either introduced a sick tang (the gold rimmed) or it stressed out, got the ich and then the rest was history. None of the fish now have ich. They are just getting cloudy eyes and their fins are deteriorating. I'm thinking maybe the gold rimmed tang stressed when I was putting new corals in the tank? We had had him a few weeks before the symptoms showed up. We've never had this reaction with our other tanks but one only has a Kohl tang in it, no other type of tang, two clowns and a blennie. The other tank has two clowns and two gobies. All I get from them is my hand bitten by the clowns when I get to close to their host!!
I should add that I am very careful to thoroughly wash my hands and arms before putting them in the tank and rinse them off to be sure there's no soap residue.

[chris]

I dont think those corals that you mentioned were dyed. Dying, is usually done on softies. Pagoda, and open brain dont meet the typical MO.

It just sounds to me like you are WAY too over zealous. That tank is stocked WAY to heavily to only be 6 months old. A tank doesnt settle down and really start getting stable for 6 months or so.

Also, your lighting for the corals that you mention is questionable.


I think you just had what is commonly referred to as a "crash". Too much, too soon, and the tank cant handle it.

You wash your hands before you put them in the tank? Be very careful with this. It doesnt matter how much you rinse your hands, the perfumes, etc from the soap will still be on your hands. Just rinse them with water before putting them in the tank. Dont use lotions, or perfumes, on them period.

Have you tried running some carbon?

HTH,

c

[the_blue_tuna]

I would have to agree with some of the others,,,,,,too much too soon and I would also bet you have a vitamin deficency going on in there as well

[suekey1]

I know there was too much. Why too soon? Does each fish individually have to get accustomed to the tank? This was a little different to us cause it's so much bigger than our 55. We added fish sooner in that tank but at a slower rate and never had this problem. Suggestions on how soon one can be added after one has already been acclimated and accustomed to the tank?

How do you mean the lighting is suspect? Too much or too little? This set up came with three 96 watt 10000K ultra daylight lamps and three 96 watt Ultra-Actinic blue lamps. We thought it might really be too much light but the acros are doing well so we didnt want to cut the light down. That's another problem in itself. There just isnt the rich coloration we have with our 55 and that's only got a 36" ultra daylight, an actinic blue and a 25 watt reefsun. We paid over $1000 for the lighting thinking we were doing the right thing but now I wonder. By the way, we are in california so our electric bill was already sky high, that's why we stayed away from metal halides. Our electric bill runs about $500 per month.

Also, I say I wash my arms and hands cause we have horses and when working with them, we are around fly spray, ointments, etc. I have to really scrub to be sure I'm not adding anything to the tank. I thoroughly rinse afterwards and never use any lotions or perfumes on my hands and arms. I'm going to invest in some rubber gloves just to be sure that didn't contribute to this.
Thanks for all your input.

[naser]

it might be just a bio overload. they say to add one thing at a time so your bacteria can catch up with the new waste? maybe? i dont know.

[chris]

I think you got lucky with your 55. A larger tank usually has a larger margin for error. As I said, a tank doesnt really start getting stable until after 6 months or so. (really a year) A few things in the tank after a month to six weeks and dont really start stocking until 6 months or more. Even then do it slowly, a couple of corals here, a fish there.

"Suggestions on how soon one can be added after one has already been acclimated and accustomed to the tank? " Are you in a race or something? The key to a good reef tank is SLOW! The only thing that happens fast in a reef tank is a bad thing. Add a couple of things, give the tank a few weeks to get accustomed to the new inhabitants, etc.

Too little lighting. A good rule of thumb for lighting is 4 watts per gallon on the low end. For acroporas, etc, I would try to be in the range of 6-8 watts per gallon. You are on the low end of the lighting scale. You have decent lighting for Leathers, and other softies, and LPS.

With your other activities taken into consideration, I would definitely invest in some elbow length or shoulder length rubber gloves.

HTH,
c

[suekey1]

No, I'm not in a race. That's why I asked the question. Obviously I can't trust the LFS as we asked if it was too soon and were told "no". He has offered to replace the fish we lost but given the circumstances in which is is acquiring the fish, I think we'll pass. It seems the fish are caught, put in holding tanks, then shipped to LA where they are put in holding tanks, again. First thing Monday morning he's there with a lot of others scooping up what he can, dumping them in yet another supply of water, driving 2 hours just to dump them in his tank. That's an awful lot of stress for the little finned guys to handle I would think. We pick out the fish we want and ask them to be held for a couple of weeks but we have now discovered the system water is not changed frequently. All in all, it seems like not the right place to get fish. We will wait out at least 6 weeks and maybe add one fish to see what happens. Regardless of the loss of money, we don't want to contribute to unnecessary death of fish. My husband spends a lot of time with these tanks measuring parameters, feeding vitamins and a wide variety of foods, adding supplements as needed, etc. The water parameters are always right on.
Regarding the light in this tank, the acropora is actually growing quite nicely. It's all up on top with lots of water flow. That's another story in itself but they seem to be doing well. I realize there are differences in opinion as to whether or not you can use PCs vs metal halides. We will not be adding any more coral, fish or anything until this all comes under control.
Thanks for your advise. We now know to do it a little slower.
Sue

[kevinpo]

Sue,
You mention the average temp. is 82F. What is the maximum and minimum? If there is more than a 3-4 degree swing (in 24hrs) it will really stress the fish. Also your salinity is a bit low 1.025 should be your target. Fish will do fine at 1.023 if everything else is perfect. Some public aquariums keep their salinity even lower. This is because they keep many different species of fish together and to keep them from fighting they lower the salinity. This slows the fishes metabolism and makes them sluggish. Your lighting should be OK for sps if you keep your corals high up on the reef.
And last....Don't give up....with patience I'm sure you will overcome this challenge.

Best of luck,
Kevin

[suekey1]

Kevin, The temp is usually 82 but during the summer it had gone up to 84. We put an additional fan on it and now it's leveled out at 82. In the am it is always 80 cause the lights are off.
The salinity is another concern of ours. We found out the LFS keeps their salinity at .019. We were told from the beginning to keep the salinity in a reef at .023. The other two tanks are at that and havent had any problems at all. Maybe we'll try changing it per your info and see what happens. I think its going to have to be back to having a quarantine tank due to the differences in the store and our tank. Our fish only is at .019, I believe (my husband keeps track of all the specifics).
I'm so ready to be patient now, it may be several months before we get the nerve up to add anything else.
Thanks for your input. I really appreciate it.
Sue

[GreenLincoln]

About the only thing that wipes out an entire tank of fish that quickly is marine velvet. It is highly contagious and once it is in your tank (usually from one sick fish recently introduced), you will have to leave the tank fishless for at least a month. There is nothing safe to use in a reef to cure velvet. This happened to me when my tank was about 6 months old. One sure sign your fish have velvet is, usually in the last couple of days of life, they hang out near a powerhead, in the water flow, trying to get more oxygen to their gills. They will sometimes even still eat when infected, only to die in a couple of days. Velvet does not look like ich, in fact, it is VERY hard to see. You can usually only see it if you look at your fish from an extreme angle and it looks like a coating of dust on their sides.

After you have lost your last fish that seems to be affected, do not add any more fish for at least a month. This will allow the velvet to run its life cycle without a host. Wouldn't hurt to add a UV filter as well.

Good luck.

[suekey1]

Thanks, that's exactly what they did before they died. The first one to do it was the bicolor blennie. That was very strange behaviour for him since he always hung out in one of the rock holes. The tanks all did it, too, just before they died. Does it affect the eyes as well? I'm going to try to attach a picture of one of the cardinals we have left. Neither one exhibit any other problem now except the eyes.
Thanks so much for your kind input!
Sue

[Rin]

Sue,

My vote is for Marine velvet, as well. I had a similiar event to yours at about the 5-month mark. I introduced a pair of false percs to my 75. At the same time I upgraded my lighting system, which resulted in the tank being dark for a couple of days. Hours after the lights came back on both apparently succumbed to an ick-like illness. A few days after that, the remander of my population started to decline. Of 5 fish only the purple tang survived. All the rest died exhibiting the exact same symptoms as yours--and it was fast--just two days from the moment the first fish began declining my population was whiped out. I tried moving everyone to the hospital tank, but only the Purple Tang made it. His eyes didn't clear up for almost a month.

Seven weeks after that event I moved the PT back to my tank. Two weeks after that, I added my Scott's Fairy Wrasses. Two months later I added a lawnmower blenny and a Foxface (fingers crossed). A month later (this weekend), I added a pair of Maroon Clowns. I'm not 100% sure of all the dates, but I think this is pretty close.

Keeping your tank fish-free for 6 weeks or more is my relatively-inexperienced recommendation. This, at least, will rule out the possibility of velvet or ick.

good luck

[GreenLincoln]

Suekey1, no, velvet does not affect the eyes, but it will weaken a fish to the point they will have no resistance to other diseases or ailments as well (that is, if they survive at all). What your PJ cardinal shows is a bacterial infection brought on by a weakened immune system.

The hanging-out-in-front-of-a-powerhead thing is a sure sign of velvet. At least now you know what your dealing with, and what to do. Whatever you do, do not move any fish from the afflicted tank to one of your other tanks, or you will introduce the parasite in the healthy tank.

Best of luck...just give it time.