[jjgina]

Any body use this stuff? Can you really use only this mud and Caluerpa rock with no skimmer? Sounds too good to be true!

[Ninong]

One of the moderators on this board does exactly that: http://www.homestead.com/spasse/Old180Gallon.html

Ninong

[mrok12]

My 65 Gallon is set up this way. Parameter are all excellent with no detectable NO3/NO2/NH4. Ph is stable as well. The tank is home to acro's, monti's, pavona, ect withclams and a few fish too. I am using a skimmer on the 120 gallon that we are setting up but also plan a designated area in the sump for miracle mud and caulerpa. If you get a skimmer I suggest a euro-reef, good quality!!!!

MROK12

[SPasse]

Jjgina,

After you visit my WEB site, I would be happy to answer any specific questions that you may have regarding this approach.

My system was actually an Ecosystem “hybrid” as I added a 6” DSB to the system, in the main tank.

The DSB seem to work in a complimentary fashion with the Ecosystem filter.

I was, overall, very pleased with the system. I intend on using it again with my next reef tank.

About the only downside was that you needed to use carbon for about 1 week every 90 days or so, to remove a green tint from the water. The picture on my web site that shows my entire tank was photographed just before one of those “water-polishing” events.

A protein skimmer, used just occasionally, would accomplish the same function.

These systems have a very high level of micro fauna and “home grown” plankton.

Regards,

Scott Passe

[Rob]

Very interesting site about the Ecosystem.com system. The mud there looks like a good candidate for what I need.

Who else is using this mud?

Why do they claim that a DSB is counterproductive, and Scott says that it works well?

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Rob:

Why do they claim that a DSB is counterproductive, and Scott says that it works well?

Because it would be very difficult to sell sand for $8/lb. But if you call your product "Miracle Mud," the adjective allows you to sell mud for $8/lb. Simple.

Leng Sy makes a lot of claims that many people, including me, do not believe. He claims that this Miracle Mud comes from the ocean--or, I should say that he claims that a certain portion of it comes from the ocean. Personally, I don't believe that any of it comes from the ocean. But don't let that get in the way of your trying it in your refugium if that's what you would like to do.

Scott uses a 6" deep sand bed in his main tank and a mud type substrate in his refugium. He says that his experience is that the two different infaunal communities seem to compliment each other. He harvests macroalgae from his refugium as a means of exporting nutrients. The macroalgae in his refugium take up nutrients that would otherwise cause problems for his entire system. He uses this method of nutrient export as an alternative to foam fractionation. It is certainly a more gentle method that would seem to permit greater planktonic density and diversity.

The Miracle Mud, no matter where it really comes from, probably has a fairly high iron content, which may--or may not--be relevant to the growth of the macroalgae. I guess it all depends on how the iron, if present, is released into the water column so that the macroalgae can benefit. Anyway, some people seem to really like using the Miracle Mud, even if it is a bit pricey.

My own little bitty two cents worth: I think you could achieve the same thing with a sizeable refugium even if the substrate in the refugium was 6" deep fine aragonite sand instead of a shallow layer of Miracle Mud. My opinion is that the important thing is the macroalgae in there that are outcompeting the nuisance algae in the main tank for available nutrients. The regular harvesting of macroalgae from the refugium removes nutrients from the system--just as a skimmer would.

I haven't figured out the basis for Leng Sy's claim that Miracle Mud will prevent, or even reverse, HLLE. Maybe it will. But he's not exactly forthcoming in his explanation of this benefit.

The bottom line is that there are lots of folks who swear by this stuff. They use it and like it. Personally I'm in the group that doesn't believe it is actually what it is claimed to be but that's another story.

Ninong

P.S. -- They also recommend that the substrate in your main tank be no more than 3/8" deep. Did you believe that one? What about their warning that substrates deeper than 1" in the main tank could cause hydrogen sufide problems? Believe that?

[Rob]

Hi Ninong, glad to see that you're around.

Personally, I shy away from anything with names like Miracle This and Amazing That. I'm bombarded with eMail subject headings with similar buzzwords. All claim to restore the hair to the top of my dome, show my lady that I still care if I buy Viagra, teach me to pick winning lottery numbers, join a pyramid marketing scheme, refinance my home, pay no more income tax, and cheat death by buying online Cipro. "As Seen on TV."

To your point, the "Miracle" people are throwing together too many variables, in my opinion, then making assumptions instead of conclusions. This is true of too much grant-based academic research today, unfortunately. I'm still skeptical.

I wouldn't be surprised if control experiments would show that the mud (fine-grained silt) was just a nice substrate for the algae, and that the algae growth alone was responsible for much of the nutrient export. Salt marshes were historically great filters for the whole coastal zone in our continent... that is, before they were replaced by hotels and condominiums.

Yeah, Miracle Mud sure is pricey, Wow! I just checked. Is this hobby still suitable, on my mere programmer's salary?

[Ninong]

Here's an idea: I will take some regular Southdown sand and repackage it as Miracle Refugium Sand and sell it for $5/lb. Then I will sent out unsolicited, annoying e-mail messages telling everyone on all the reefing boards that my product literally explodes when you open the bag.

Or, maybe I should just dig up some of the heavy clay soil in the back yard (it's a big back yard), mix it with about 65% regular silica playsand, heat it to kill all the scary stuff, dry it out and "process" it and sell it as Ninong's Secret Substrate or maybe Refugium Magic. How about $6/lb? Sound about right? Of course, with my back yard, since it wasn't that long ago that it actually was under seawater, my miracle mud might actually test out as containing stuff that once lived in the actual ocean--unlike some other product I know of.

Ninong

[Rob]

Dear Ninong,

LOL!

Sounds like a business plan. Is there any more dot-com seed capital left ?

Now, if you wanted someone as skeptical as me to pay a pretty penny for something direct from your aquatic estate, home-made wine or beer (or even better, absinthe) would work best.

[Ninong]

They don't make absinthe the way they used to in the good old days. I think it's illegal or something to make it according to the original recipe.

Ninong

[PerryinCA]

jjgina,

Personally I think that you would be just as successful with a reverse daylight refugium with a deep sand bed. I don't follow the "Miracle Mud" hype. I do, however, think that a algae tank/scruber/refugium...whatever you may call it, is a great way to get rid of nitrogenious waste like nitrate, ammonia...ect.

As for the absinthe, its illegal in the states to make or sell any beverage containing thujone, which is the main psychoactive substance in wormwood....an ingredient in Absinthe. There are many "Anisette" drinks which have a similar flavor to absinthe, as they are also Anise based drinks, but they lack the fun stuff.

There are a few countries in Europe which still sell it, and I have on a few occasions imported some (I am unsure of the legalities of this) from a friend who runs a online store. If anyone is really interested, they can PM me for more info.

Reef on!

Merry Christmas, or whatever holiday you may be celebrating!

-Perry

[SPasse]

Hi All,

I want to make this clear, that I make no claims for the miracle mud other than it seems to be a good particle distribution for a mud bed, and that it seems to contain Iron and apparently nothing “harmful”. Whether is terrestrial or of an ocean origin, I don’t have a clue, and really don’t care.

I do believe that the iron that it contains is a least partially soluble as I would periodically test for Iron and would see higher levels than I would see in my previous algae filtered systems. I have also come to believe that NSW levels of iron are necessary for macro algae growth

When I set up my last system I wanted to utilize both a DSB in the main tank and a mud bed in the refugium/sump. I discovered the “miracle mud” about the time I was planning my last system, so I decided to give it a try. Being an engineer I am always cynical of anything that I can’t quantify and qualify and anything called “miracle mud” certainly was a red flag.

So I guess that I will continue to use it. It is really not that expensive, at least as a percentage of a total reef tank budget. And based on my last system, I am happy with it.

Regards,

Scott Passe

[jjgina]

I posted this message because I am new to salt water and have only been keeping freshwater fish for about 1 and a half years. Like you guys I am very skeptical about a product that makes the claims that ecosystem does. I figure that if this stuff was such a miracle, everyone would be using it. The claims of a novice being able to keep a spectacular reef system was what made me inquire about it. After talking to some professionals I believe I will go with a good deep sand bed and live rock with a quality protein skimmer. The things you guys are talking about is way over my head so I'll just keep it simple and learn as I go.
QUESTION: Do you think that I could use my Fluval 304 for water polishing?, If so, whats the best substrate?

Thank You all for your advice, it sounds like I would be in over my head with the "mud", it almost sounds like you need to be somewhat of an expert in order to use it because if you have a problem there is no one to ask for help

[PerryinCA]

You could use your fluval from time to time, intermittently. The only thing I would see using that would be of value would be a good high quality activated carbon aimed for reefkeeping. Only use it for a few days at a time as needed. I can't put enough emphasis on HIGH quality (I use black diamond) because low quality carbon can often be treated with phosphoric acid to increase adhesion properties. This obviously could cause big problems with algae, and other annoyances.


Sounds like you have a good plan, just be sure to buy a high quality skimmer, as the lower cost ones tend to end up in the 'bin, or in the trash.

-Perry

[jjgina]

What are the good skimmers?
I know someone selling a Red Sea Berlin25-250 gal, RIO 2100 Pump, and Aquarium Systems Visi-Therm 250 watt heater

I also know someone selling a PMS 626 skimmer (CV626)

How much are these things worth?
Is it bad to buy used?

[SPasse]

Jjgina,

I certainly won’t try to talk you out of a skimmer, I have had some good ones on past systems, and this is certainly perfectly viable method of reefkeeping.

Whether a skimmed system is easier for a “novice” to maintain is an open question.

After running both kinds of systems, I’m not sure a no-skimmer approach is per say any more difficult, perhaps just requiring more patience.

As far as what the “professionals” think, well there are plenty of them that are running algae filtered systems also.

You may find that the “fiddling with” that many skimmers require to remain productive is a bit of a challenge.

Again, successful reef keeping seems to be more a question of finesse and patience than absolute method.

Skimmers and algae filtration are not mutually exclusive, you can start with a skimmed system and add a refugium, mud bed, etc at a later date. Then you may find that you can turn your skimmer off.

Here is a forum on Aqualink that deals with algae filtered tanks:

http://www.aqualink-too.com/ubb/boar...ubb=forum&f=47

So whatever method you choose, good luck.

Regards,

Scott Passe

[naser]

ive come to a understanding that reef keeping is an ART........................... i love my reef.... sorry had to come out.

[Rob]

I know someone selling a Red Sea Berlin25-250 gal, RIO 2100 Pump...
Is it bad to buy used?

Dear Jgina,

The Red Sea Berlin skimmer is a great reliable skimmer, at a fairly low retail price. You should do a search of the online stores, one of the most reputable ones with good prices is http://www.premiumaquatics.com.

I bought a used Turboflotor once on eBay from some Aquarium Service company and got "serviced". The thing was an old, filthy damaged thing that should have been thrown away, and I was out the money because eBay backs the sellers. Then I bought a used Berlin from Bajathree, a very cool guy in Jersey who might still be on this forum. the Berlin is still happily in service. (thanks, Steve!) So anything can happen, you're taking your chances.

However, if you buy used, consider that the design of the Berlin has changed recently, and they NOW provide a much better pump than the Rio. The Rio is a real cheap and loud pump that has self-destructed on a few people in the hobby. When a Rio self-destructs, it creates an oilslick that contaminates the entire tank and kills the inhabitants.

There are others who swear by Rio. Go figure. I'm not one to take chances like this, i work very hard for the money that it takes to stay in this hobby... speaking of money, you might try to plan a realistic budget to avoid getting stuck.

[gemtang]

I use the ecosystem method on my 50g reef tank, that means no skimmer. I have some lps and sps corals in there, and a really heavy fish load, and the nitrates are at 0. I keep a lot of rare specimens in this tank, and I trust it. About the miracle mud, you can say what you want about the product, but you won't get a definite answer until you try it. If you want more info about ecosystems and the miracle mud check out their website:

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/index.html

The site contains a lot of research and articles by popular names in the hobby, including steve tyree and mike paletta. I went to visit Ecosystems in Irvine and I got to see all their tanks. Their fish looked absolutely beautiful, and very fat. They even had some rare hard to keep fish like moorish idols and Arcuatus angels that they had for 5 years. The Arcuatus angels really impressed me since they are so hard to keep. At ecosystems, they kept them in tanks w/ bare bottoms and absolutely no live rock. And as far as HLLE goes, check out Freddy, their Emperor angel who had a severe HLLE, they have a lot of research on him and other fish w/ HLLE in their website.

I'm not trying to say the Ecosystem method is the best method, but if you want to try an alternative out there, and want to try the natural method then try Ecosystems or a combinations of methods w/ the miracle mud. For people who say its too expensive and a "hype", those are the people who havent tried it. Go figure.

[Ninong]

gemtang,

Thanks for your input. You are one of the many satisfied users of this product that I mentioned in my posts above. As I suggested in my replies above, anyone who is interested in trying it should go ahead and try it... and let us know what they think. I still think it is a bit "pricey." I don't know if I would say that it is "expensive." I did say that I personally do not believe that it is dug up in the ocean. I believe it is probably dug up in California somewhere. I guess we can all believe whatever we choose.

Leng Sy, in all of his interviews, has been rather secretive in answering questions concerning HLLE and exactly how it may be affected by Miracle Mud. That is not to say that it may not have some effect, only that he is reluctant to explain the chemistry involved or explain the contents of his product. As far as the claim on the website that sand beds deeper than 1" may present problems with hydrogen sulfide, I don't believe that and consider that to be misinformation.

There are several different ways to run a reef-tank and anything that works is great, especially if it is a more natural solution. I believe I called it a more "gentle" solution in my earlier response. However, if someone is promoting a product that retails for $8 to $10 a pound, that has to be replenished on a regular schedule, I would be suspicious of their intentions when they make statements to the effect that sand beds cause problems in reef-tanks. Personally, I believe that is misinformation. Which is not to say that you cannot keep a reef-tank without any sand bed at all, only that warning people of the so-called dangers of hydrogen sulfide in a sand bed deeper than 1" is a bit much.

When you visited the EcoSystems facility, did you ask any questions about the source of the Miracle Mud or the contents of same?

Regards,

Ninong