Cyano?

[Tank]

I get this stuff every time I turn on my Iwaki bulbs.It grows fast, covers the tank sand in less than 4 hours, a little on the glass also.Has bubbles of gas in it.Is it just cyano?With a 10k bulb it barely appears at all.Here's a pic.

[Reefland]

That's what it is for sure. Are the Iwasaki's you have old? Old bulbs in addition to some nitrates will cause a cyano outbreak for sure.

Scott Z.

[Tank]

Hey Scott,

The bulbs are like 3 months old, but have only been used for like 3 weeks total.Heh with all the money I have spent of late on my tank , old bulbs are the last thing my wife wants to hear about. LOL......

[Reefland]

What is your nitrate reading?

A good cure is to suck as much out as possible then do a water change to capture some of the floating cyano in the column. Obviously, this is only temporary until the main cause can be found. Sure is weird that the 10k's don't cause the outbreak like the 6500's.

Scott Z.

[scubadude]

It cost 20bux but it will remove cyano which I think thats wat you have up there.....But be forewarned...it will make your skimmer go crazy...so turn it off before adding! And after like 24-48 hrs you need to do massive water changes!....and also realize that this is NOT fixing the source of your cyano! You need to find out why you are having cyano...overfeeding, underskimming, both? not enough current? etc etc. HTH

[scubadude]

Ultralife sells it from their site

http://www.ultralifedirect.com/red_slime_remover.htm

That is really weird how it only happens w/your iwasakis....I have heard a lower kelvin rating does supposedly induce algae growth better though.

[scubadude]

Geez dude...I got to thinkin more about this....and Why dont you just send me those frags til you fix your situation.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Reefland
Sure is weird that the 10k's don't cause the outbreak like the 6500's.

Scott Z.

Not really. Rather than type out a detailed explanation, I have decided to just cut and paste my rather exhaustive and boring comments from an old Reef Central thread that I responded to a few months back. I have placed the specific answer to the light dilemma in bold.

Here goes... try not to fall asleep:

Cyanobacteria can be properly classified as either blue-green algae or cyanobacteria. And, yes, it is photosynthetic bacteria that does seem to raise its ugly head in response to deteriorating aquarium lighting--specifically when lamps begin to shift to red. It is also nutrient limited and prefers areas of stagnant current. Thus the typical advice to provide ample current flow over the area, employ good skimming to reduce nutrients and replace lamps, if necessary. While it is possible to temporarily fix the problem with antibiotics, it will return unless the conditions that it finds favorable are eliminated.

It's kinda difficult to completely eliminate something that has been around for some three billion years. ;)

.....

The three-billion-years comment was humor.

"While it is possible to temporarily fix the problem with antibiotics, it will return unless the conditions that it finds favorable are eliminated."--this is the thrust of my point.

The cautionary warnings against employing antibiotics relate to potential side effects and not to whether or not they work. The reason many people recommend against them is because they have absolutely nothing to do with changing the conditions that allow cyanobacteria to thrive.

Cyanobacteria will occupy any available hospitable space, either in nature or in an aquarium. There are natural controls that hold it in check that do not exist in aquaria. In a heavily stocked, well balanced aquarium the corals and other inhabitants will out-compete the cyano and it will not become a problem. You can have problems with cyano even if your water parameters all test normal.

.....

Originally posted by Aquaman:
"I have used Red slime remover back when I first started my reef tank. So I dosed the approprate amounts and yes it worked quite well, The problem is it dropped the oxygen level and as a result I lost a couple of clowns. Since I did not fix the cause it did come back although not any more so then before. I did find out later through trial and error my bulbs seemed to be the culprit. Since then I have not used it again and would rather fight my cyano problems by attacking the source rather than the symptom."

Ninong: Whenever using anything like that it is important that you siphon out as much of the dying cyanobacteria as possible to prevent what you experienced. Also, leaving the decaying algae in the tank just provides more nutrients to fuel a new bloom.

The limiting nutrient seems to be nitrogen. Phosphate and other nutrients play a role but nitrogen seems to be critical. When DOC levels rise and the pH is right, the temperature is right, and the lighting is right, cyanobacteria will appear. There are several families of cyanobacteria and dozens of species. Which species shows up depends on the conditions. I don't think it is possible to say that it has been permanently eliminated from a tank because it is in the air and can reestablish itself if the conditions are right.

The reason you noticed a change in the population of red slime algae in your tank when you changed your lighting is because you changed the equilibrium in the tank and made it less favorable to the red slime algae by removing lighting that was optimal. This was obviously enough to change the conditions to a less favorable environment. This is because blue-green algae (cyanobacteria) is really neither an algae nor a bacteria. It is both. From the standpoint of cell structure, it is a bacteria. In fact, it is so small that you need an electron microscope to study it. That red slimey stuff you see holding it together is just the exudate of the algae. Based on the fact that it is photosynthetic and contains pigments, it is an algae.

There are several classification models based on cell structure and method of reproduction, but they are not universally agreed upon. Some people like to call it blue-green algae and some like to call it cyanobacteria. No matter what you call it, it has properties of both algae and bacteria. The outer region of the cell contains the photosynthetic algal mechanism and the pigments. Which wavelengths of light are absorbed depends on which pigments are present. The most common red slime algae found in reef tanks has a lot of phycoerythrins, whose absorption level is optimized at 555-564 nm (the middle of the yellow band). This is why it has a tendency to pop up when lights start to get old and their spectral distribution starts shifting to longer wavelengths.

Red phycoerythrin is only one possible pigment. Blue phycocyanin and allophycocyanin are dominant in some species. These are optimized at different wavelengths and result in different color algae. Some species are opportunistic in the sense that they contain a mix of pigments and will utilize whichever pigment is favored by the aquarium lighting conditions.

All of these pigments are phycobiliproteins (not the same as chlorophyll and carotenoids) and are in the lipid layer. After the light energy is processed by phycobiliproteins in the photosynthesis II cycle it is transmitted to the photosynthesis I system and its chlorophyll-a.

So light can be a determining factor not only in whether cyanobacteria will appear but also in determining which species will appear. The type of nutrients (the source of the nitrogen) available seems to effect the method of reproduction and the size of the cells. You cannot have cyanobacteria without sufficient nutrients to feed it. So the first order of business in dealing with an outbreak would be to siphon out as much as possible and then do a fairly large water change to reduce the DOC. This is in addition to the permanent controls of making sure that the tank is adequately skimmed (unless you are using an alternate method of nutrient export), has good lighting and good water current. The reason for directing water current directly at the problem sites is because you are breaking up the slimey stuff that sticks the algae together. The red slimey stuff is exuded by the algae.

Some people seem to get some satisfaction by adding animals that eat red slime, like Strombus gigas, and this may help in controlling small patches of the stuff but I don't think it would make much difference if the conditions in the tank happened to become ideal for cyanobacteria. There is also speculation that cyanobacteria is more prevalent at different times of the year.

It is a very natural thing and I don't think the appearance of it in a tank is any indication of neglect on the part of the hobbyist. In fact, in a new tank you are just about guaranteed to experience it no matter what you do. The only reason I mentioned heavily stocked tanks having less of a problem is because all of the nutrients are taken up by the good animals in the tank, thus outcompeting the cyanobacteria.

.....

There, more than you ever really asked for.

The complete Reef Central thread, which is rather lengthy, is here: http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...threadid=58041

[Elmo18]

What would we do without Ninong?!?!?



Great explanation.

-Elmo

[scubadude]

Hey Ninong gots a few ?'s 4 ya bud

Originally posted by Ninong
Cyanobacteria can be properly classified as either blue-green algae or cyanobacteria.

Everyone commonly refers this to Red slime ....is it more common in Red? and the blue-green slime that I usually see too is cyano as well correct?

Originally posted by Ninong
The cautionary warnings against employing antibiotics relate to potential side effects and not to whether or not they work. The reason many people recommend against them is because they have absolutely nothing to do with changing the conditions that allow cyanobacteria to thrive.

Touche! Point well taken! However my first reaction to seeing the pic above that Tank posted was to help him save his frags..Time looks very short in that pic!..I have lost (well 95% of it) a Seriatopa Hystrix (sp) birdsnest That I spent so much time fighting the battle of the source when I wished I would have just used an additive like so many advised against it....I still would have had to battle the source irregardless but atleast the red cyano would have saved my birdsnest colony that was about baseball size....well worth the 20bux IMO!

Originally posted by Ninong
Cyanobacteria will occupy any available hospitable space, either in nature or in an aquarium. There are natural controls that hold it in check that do not exist in aquaria. In a heavily stocked, well balanced aquarium the corals and other inhabitants will out-compete the cyano and it will not become a problem. You can have problems with cyano even if your water parameters all test normal.

Couldnt agree w/you more! May I plug a book here (I think Ninong is getting some of his info from) "Marine Plants of the Carribean" This book states that cyano is a VERY important algae processor as it converts nitrogen gases (the bubbles in the algae) into other utilizable nutrients

Originally posted by Aquaman:
"I have used Red slime remover....The problem is it dropped the oxygen level and as a result I lost a couple of clowns.

Excellent statement! I think this needs to definately be considered...maybe we can use these antibiotics but need to think of alternatives for better gas exchange...maybe a small airpump and diffuser on hand?

Originally posted by Ninong
The most common red slime algae found in reef tanks has a lot of phycoerythrins, whose absorption level is optimized at 555-564 nm (the middle of the yellow band).

Red phycoerythrin is only one possible pigment. Blue phycocyanin and allophycocyanin are dominant in some species. These are optimized at different wavelengths and result in different color algae. Some species are opportunistic in the sense that they contain a mix of pigments and will utilize whichever pigment is favored by the aquarium lighting conditions.

All of these pigments are phycobiliproteins (not the same as chlorophyll and carotenoids) and are in the lipid layer. After the light energy is processed by phycobiliproteins in the photosynthesis II cycle it is transmitted to the photosynthesis I system and its chlorophyll-a.

Ok Ninong this is where it gets thick on me :P I realize that my answer to my first question is in here but its confusing. In laymens terms are you saying that as the lights get older and change their color that we will get different colors of cyano?

Originally posted by Ninong
The only reason I mentioned heavily stocked tanks having less of a problem is because all of the nutrients are taken up by the good animals in the tank, thus outcompeting the cyanobacteria.

Very interesting! Kind of a Catch22 isnt it though?

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Scubadude:

Everyone commonly refers this to Red slime ....is it more common in Red? and the blue-green slime that I usually see too is cyano as well correct?

Yes and yes.

However my first reaction to seeing the pic above that Tank posted was to help him save his frags. That I spent so much time fighting the battle of the source when I wished I would have just used an additive like so many advised against it.

Remember that my post above was three separate replies to questions in a thread on another board and not directed at anything specific in this thread other than Scott's question about light. I'm not advising against anything, only pointing out that antibiotics are only a temporary fix and that one must exercise caution in using them to avoid some of the possible problems that have been reported by other hobbyists.


Couldnt agree w/you more! May I plug a book here (I think Ninong is getting some of his info from) "Marine Plants of the Carribean."

I don't have that particular book. The topic of cyanobacteria is treated in general terms in most of the popular hobby books but if you want a more detailed explanation you have to look it up in the academic literature. If you enter the word cyanobacteria in your search engine, you will get more than 20,000 hits. One of my favorite sources is UC Berkeley, so I will usually go there first if it shows up on the list, which it usually does. That's what I did in that thread when I ran into some resistance and felt I needed a more detailed scientific explanation to back up some of my earlier claims.

In laymens terms are you saying that as the lights get older and change their color that we will get different colors of cyano?

You get cyanobacteria whenever all of the conditions for its existence are present and there is a lack of sufficient competing organisms. One of the things that can tip the balance in your tank and bring about a cyano bloom is a spectral shift to longer wavelengths. I guess it might be possible for a different species of cyanobacteria to outcompete the established species if the conditions were more favorable to the newcomer but I have no idea if you would notice any change in color. I'm sure there are dozens and dozens of species that look exactly the same.

Very interesting! Kind of a Catch22 isnt it though?

If the Catch 22 is about my saying "heavily stocked tanks" have less of a problem because all of the nutrients are taken up by the good animals in the tank then I should not have used the expression "heavily stocked tanks" because it implies "overstocked," which is not what I meant. A tank that is "in balance" is less likely to have an outbreak of cyanobacteria because there is "no vacancy."

[scubadude]

Ya know wat Ninong....Your great...You dont miss a freakin beat! I dont think you realize how many ppl envy and admire you! Just wanted to tell you though that I can read between the lines bro! I do know that you where directing at Scotts statement...Im more less speaking out loud though....Tryin 2 give you some intelectual conversation....which can be pretty hard sometimes...but very challenging!

[Reefland]

Finding the balance often takes time to acheive right? So for new comers to the hobby, who are likely to experience a bloom, why not suggest lighting that is less likely to provide the spectrums cyano absorb's? Sure the Iwasaki's are recommended for growth but we also know the 10k HQI's do well too, so wouldn't it make more since to go with these versus the 6500k's?

Additionally, if the removal of the cyano causes a drop in oxygen, why wouldn't skimming make up the difference?

Thanks for the input,
Scott Z.

[golfish]

I'm having some fun with this stuff also but its just the opposite as Tank. I seem to get more growth on the sides of the tank rather the middle. I have the 10K's (2+ weeks old bulbs) on the sides and a 12 month old Iwasaki in the middle.

I stopped feeding flake foods and only feed frozen 2-3 times a week. My porblem has been NOT siphoning it out, that's the next step.

[Ninong]

Originally posted by Reefland:

Additionally, if the removal of the cyano causes a drop in oxygen, why wouldn't skimming make up the difference?

Are you talking about Aquaman's comment that when he dosed the appropriate amounts of Red Slime Remover it killed the cyanobacteria but also lowered the oxygen causing him to lose two clowns??? Removing the cyano would not in itself cause any problems at all. In fact, it would improve things. You could have a problem with compounds emitted by the dying cyanobacteria. Maybe that's what he's talking about.

Finding the balance often takes time to acheive right? So for new comers to the hobby, who are likely to experience a bloom, why not suggest lighting that is less likely to provide the spectrums cyano absorb's? Sure the Iwasaki's are recommended for growth but we also know the 10k HQI's do well too, so wouldn't it make more since to go with these versus the 6500k's?

I doubt that you would be any more likely to have cyano with new 6500K Iwasaki's than with new 10,000K HQI's inspite of anecdotal reports to the contrary in this thread. I'm not saying it didn't happen that way, only that I wouldn't make the decision to choose 10,000K HQI over 6500K Iwasaki's based on any concerns about cyanobacteria. I happen to prefer 10,000K HQI's because I like their appearance better than that of 6500K Iwasaki's. Obviously either lamp could cause problems as they age due to the fact that metal halides do not degrade evenly across the spectral range. You lose the blue end a lot faster than the red end of the spectrum. In other words, they all shift to red, only some shift faster than others. I believe the 6500K Iwasaki's are an excellent choice, as are the 10,000K HQI's. We shouldn't place too much emphasis on the light issue. It's not the major culprit. The reason people think it is is because it just happens to be the factor that people can easily recognize. Oh, yeah, my lights started looking more yellowy and all of a sudden I got cyano. That was just the final straw. You needed the DOC imbalance first.

Here are some comments from The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, Vol. 1 by Fossa & Nilsen: (I hope I don't get in trouble for quoting too extensively.)

"The slime algae are the more disagreeable type of blue-green algae by far. They show as a bluish-black or bright red layer that can appear all of a sudden and without any apparent reason in aquaria that have been set up quite a long time. Very often it all starts with a seemingly harmless small spot of black or red colour on the bottom of the aquarium. They remain like that and do not start growing until later so that they usually go unnoticed. But very suddenly, within a few days they grow explosively and the whole aquarium decoration is covered with an ugly , slimy coating. These algae emit substances which very effectively impede the growth of other algae or even kill them. Moreover they are very harmful for many other inhabitants of the aquarium.

"It is really very difficult to get rid of these slime algae. We can try to remove them mechanically, i.e. by brushing and then siphoning them off. Yet the aquarium decoration will soon be covered by them again. If removing them mechanically is supposed to make any sense at all we have to start out on it as soon as the slightest trace of these algae appears. Once they have spread in the aquarium, it is mostly too late. Obviously there is no safe therapeutic method to fight slime algae without doing harm to other organisms at the same time. Adding antibiotics to the aquarium, e.g. Tetracycline or Erythromycin, will kill the algae, but also kills many useful bacteria, including the important denitrifying bacteria. As a matter of principle any sort of medication should be avoided in the coral reef aquarium. The effects it might have are completely unpredictable and often completely different from what was expected, even if no obvious damage seems to have been done.

"Slime algae seem to appear most easily in unstable aquaria or in tanks that were subjected to sudden changes of the milieu, e.g. when a larger number of animals is introduced within a short period of time, or when the quality or the quantity of light changes considerably. If yellow and red wavelengths predominate in the aquarium lighting this may support the growth of slime algae, a high share of blue light and UV-A radiation will have a prophylactic effect. A number of observations suggest that stable aerobic conditions with a sufficient supply of oxygen impede the growth of slime algae to a certain degree. This has, however, not yet been proven. We think that problems with slime algae are usually due to the accumulation of nutrients and biological imbalance.

"We have observed repeatedly that the amount of algae generally rises with the increase of the nutrient content, e.g. after a period of amply feeding or if the protein skimmer has not been cleaned sufficiently. This is an absolutely normal reaction which should not surprise anyone. A sudden great increase of red slime algae is mainly due to a change for the worse in the milieu of the aquarium. The accumulation of nutrients in the aquarium water results in the availability of nutrients for all algae. It also influences the bacterial flora in the aquarium system. Red slime algae are closely related to the bacteria. It is possible that a change of the normal bacterial flora may result in an intensive growth of red slime algae."