DSB. water circulation and oxygen

[Dunk]

I have a DSB which is separate from my main tank and fed from my sump, the DSB is 5ft x 3ft and 14" high. The depth of the sand is about 4" ( http://www.elliottd.fslife.co.uk ) As this is my first DSB I have a couple of questions. Should I have a powerhead in the tank for circulation ? and and is it desirable to oxygenate the surface layer of the DSB .

Cheers

Duncan

[Bughead]

Interesting set-up. Amazing the neat things we can do when we have enough room. Anyway, here's what I think, and don't take this as gospel, I could certainly be wrong. I don't believe you need to do anything to your DSB tank. The water is being plenty oxygenated by the movement of the water from the main tank to the sump. I see no reason to add water movement to the DSB tank. Looks like you have a great working set-up as is.

[Reefland]

That is a very interesting looking set-up! Care to explain how it all runs together?

I agree with Bughead too, the current flowing into the tank should be plenty. In fact a less disturb enviroment may be more desirable depending on what else you plan to house in it.

Scott Z.

[Dunk]

Thanks for the info on the DSB,
The filter room used to be my garage.... I ain't much into cars, so it is now my filter room. The wall next to the sump and the DSB is the living room wall which is where the main tank is situated.
( <http://www.elliottd.fslife.co.uk/tankmain.html> )
The main tank is basically a 5ft cube 3ft deep with the front corner taken off and holds approx 400 gallon. The water is gravity fed from the main tank through the wall to the sump in the garage which holds approx 200 gallon. The shallow tank above the main sump is the DSB which is fed from the sump and gravity feeds back . The two tanks on the wall are for water salt mix and the other is for top up. The skimmer is 8ft tall and 8" in diameter and is a CC DIY job made entirely from 6mm glass and is powered by an Aquamedic water pump and driven by an Hi-blo air pump. All tanks including the main tank are DIY as is the cabinet and hood. I am using two Aquamedic pumps ( 900gph each) for returns and an ITT marlow pump which generates 4000 gph for flow in the main tank on a closed loop. I am using LR for the main filtration and of course the DSB. I also intend do grow algae's in the main sump. For lighting I am using 400 watt DIY halides with 20k bulbs alongside a mixture of tubes. The tank is not yet stocked however I have just added the LR and I am in the process of seeding the DSB.
Feel free to comment on the set-up either good or bad.

Cheers

Dunk

[organicreefer]

"Feel free to comment on the set-up either good or bad. "

lol-good

[Davers]

Well cool it looks amazing! cannot wait to see what it looks like with some fish n stuff in it,if only i had the room

[Dunk]

I will keep you posted on the progress.


Dunk

[Mr Neutron]

From my understanding, seperate sandbeds aren't nearly as efficient as in-tank sandbeds due to the majority of nutrients needed by the bed not making it to the second tank. There is alot of good info in Dr Shimek's forum on RC about this.

[Dunk]

Yeah... so I have read and heard. But hey... am sure I will find out and I can always take it out if I run into any problems.


Cheers

Dunk

[Bughead]

I doubt there would be any problems neccesitating the removal of the DSB. The problem is it would be more effective in the main tank, and putting it into the main tank is a giant pain in the a$$. JUst hope yours is effective enough in the sump.

[Mr Neutron]

Well there would be problems if his DSB couldn't process what it's supposed to and became a nutrient sink, thereby making his water quality *worse*.

[Dunk]

Why wouldn't it process what it's supposed to ?

The DSB is already well populated with an abundance of life including worm's pod's mini brittle stars etc. The DSB is fed from the main tank, therefore uneaten food etc will feed the DSB. The water from the DSB is returned to the compartment of my sump where the return pumps are located. I am sure I will find out in time if the DSB does its job or not.
This guy seems to do okay with a remote DSB.
http://www.andy-hipkiss.co.uk/


Cheers

Duncan

[organicreefer]

imo -there is no way an external dsb will make water quality worse.it will process what comes in.i have seen plenty of successful external dsbs-and although i have one in the main tank -well about 50% of the tank-i also have a 8" dsb in my refugium.

i love live deep substrates...but i disagree with dr ron on a few points -and he is the one whos had his tanks crash after four years so,take his advice at youre own risk imo
not that i know more or better than dr ron -its just i have a different philosophy....especially on temps ,and the amount of food inputs required .

[organicreefer]

youre aquascaping is absolutely fabulous.one of the best ove seen in a long long time.is the rock live ? it cant be it has to be fake.....how are the shelves mounted on the back .
again absolutely incredible

[Dunk]

Hmmm...
The problem with this hobby is ... who to take advice from and who not to take advice from
my previous set-up was a sham due to the listening to one person. The way I have approached it this time around is to read.. read.. read..and make my own assumption's, which may be right and they may be wrong, only time will tell.
The way I see it my remote DSB is merely an extension of my main tank. If it serves it's purpose "great" , if not ... I get to observe all the macro life that exists within it . To be honest I don't really know as I am no expert an do not claim to be, but who can blame a guy for experimenting. And if all goes pear shaped it is down to me and no one else.

organicreefer,
Thanks for the words of encouragement,
The rock you see is "relic rock" which is dead LR. I have aquascaped in this fashion as I have a passion for Tangs, and from what I have read they need plenty of swimming space and plenty of water movement.
The shelves are 12mm glass siliconed to the back of the tank. I have hidden the edges of the shelves by siliconing small pieces of rock to them. I will be adding LR to the sump and the main tank shortly. I will also be growing macro algae in the sump to nutrient export.
In short all I can do is put my theory into practise and hope for the best, because like I say " I am no expert".


Cheers

Duncan

[Mr Neutron]

It will process what it gets, yes, but NOT if it doesn't get enough. It's pretty obvious most food and waste we feed is left to deposit in the main tank, unless you have an incredible flow that sends *everything* into the second tank. The food you feed the main tank plus wastes need to get into the external DSB that is 1)sufficient area comparable to the size of the main tank and 2)well populated with sandbed fauna, otherwise it will not be a balanced sandbed and will start to cause problems with your water quality.

Dunk, you are spot on. However, there are lots of myths and wives tales spread in this hobby and the only guiding light is thru science most times. We all try our best.

Organic, the reason for at least one of Dr Shimek's tanks to fail was due to the use of "GARF" grunge, which reduced worm access in the bed and caused clumping to occur. It had nothing to do with the sound practice of deep sand beds or external deep sand beds.

[Reefland]

So obviously the concern is that not enough food will get to the fauna in the external sand bed to keep the bed thriving and functioning correct? Couldn't this be fixed by feeding the sand bed? Maybe by putting a squirt of frozen brine or a piece of shrimp?

Now for my question, how can we tell if the bed is not thriving (other than a lack of critters and maybe a nutrient build-up)? However if other natural and mechanical methods are eliminating the nutrients, will it even be noticable?

Scott Z.

[Mr Neutron]

Originally posted by Reefland
So obviously the concern is that not enough food will get to the fauna in the external sand bed to keep the bed thriving and functioning correct? Couldn't this be fixed by feeding the sand bed? Maybe by putting a squirt of frozen brine or a piece of shrimp?

Now for my question, how can we tell if the bed is not thriving (other than a lack of critters and maybe a nutrient build-up)? However if other natural and mechanical methods are eliminating the nutrients, will it even be noticable?

Scott Z.

Yep, feeding would help alot. Every tank is different tho so one can't say exactly how much to feed, depends on things like bioload, size of the bed etc.

I would say a thriving bed has a wide variety of life forms that process detritus and nutrients quickly, so if you don't notice many critters and accumulation of junk then you may have to recharge it. Swapping sand with fellow reefers or one of the online kits would work.

[Reefland]

So if the sand bed appears to have lots of life in it, the sand bed is said to be functioning as a form of filtration in your opinion? I guess either way, regardless of what one determines is a functional sand bed if it is processing nutrients and converting them to Nitrogen gas then it is working and beneficial to your system.

Scott Z.

[Mr Neutron]

Yes, if the bed is set up properly and you have a good population of critters moving the sandbed and clearing detritus it would be healthy IMO.