[nvert]

i'd like to get a discussion going on a condition that possibly contributes to or is a symtom of something causing clam death. minh nguyen has a thread going on over at reefs.org about it, with pics ... http://reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=169654#169654

i have seen a similar condition with my clams. i have lost a 4" squamosa which, over a period of 4 weeks, the mantle became more and more pinched. i have a 3" crocea that i've had for two months that off and on has shown some pinching. i have a new 5" maxima of two weeks that is now showing some of this pinching. i have a 4"derasa that's been in my tank for 6 mos that has never showed this pinching. in all cases, the pinching on the crocea, maxima, and lost squamosa began near the incurrent syphon along the mantle where the mantle meets the shell. all clams have also shown new growth (especially the squamosa) prior to the pinching. my tank has been stable for several months now, i have good lighting, and chemistry is all in line according to recognized authors and fellow reefers.

does anyone know anything about this? what can i do to help out my crocea and maxima? minh nguyen used a 30 minute dip in fresh r/o. anyone else have experience dipping clams in freshwater?


brad

[nvert]

anyone? mynh? peterlin98? barry?

mynh...how long did it take your clams to recover from the dip?

peterlin....are your clams still showing pinched mantles? i noticed no one addressed this in your previous posts.

brad

[Barry N.]

I am not quit sure what you mean by " pinched mantle" ? Do you mean a part of the mantle that has pulled back from the shell a little? Can you show us a picture?

Have done fresh water dip a few times, sometimes works and sometimes causes more stress.

Barry

[nvert]

barry-
i do not have a pic of my clam but minh's pic from his thread on reefs.org is a very good example. here it is below. notice that on the blue maxima there is a pinch on the left side of the clam. this is exactly what i am seeing in two of my clams. i've checked for irritations and parasites, both day and night, and was unable to find anything that i could determine as being an issue. there have been a few other reefers saying that they have seen this pinching as well. my squamosa went through 4 weeks of this condition before he died. the few days before he died the pinching got worse, much like in the pic below but the pinching occured over several areas of the mantle. little gaping was present during this period. my crocea only does this occaisionally, but with the maxima, it has become a constant condition that seems to be getting worse. i just don't know....and i'm very frustrated that i can't do anything about it. if it is some sort of illness then all my three clams probably need to be treated even if they don't show any symptoms. as you see, i'm not sure what to do here and i don't want to loose another clam.

[Barry N.]

Brad,

Thanks, I see what you are saying now. I was going to say check for irritation but you have done that. Still there could be a VERY small parasite on his shell or just inside the lip of the mantle that could be VERY hard to see. See if you can blow a burst of water where he has drawn back, maybe a small partical of sand. Other than than I could not say.

Keep is posted please.

Barry

[peterlin98]

HI Brad -
Thanks for posting your message. Having lost 10 clams earlier this year, I'm also doing everything I can - to provide best growing environment to my 27 clamies - so that I do not loose any. I did - however - several weeks ago. It was a maxima with pinching mantle. I thought it would help by dipping it in fresh RO water for 30 min. I have previously done this with 2 squamosa, 3 crocea, 1 maxima. All have responded well to freshwater dipping - except this last maxima. My only comfort was that it was not the prettiest clam.

I'm attaching a picture of pinching squamosa. Pinching is in the upper cornner near the outlet. This same clam is doing okay right now (see next message for picture). This was the clam that responded fine to fresh water dipping 2 month ago - but pinching has since returned. Since I lost a maxima clam from fresh water dipping - I'm more reluctant to repeat treatment unless there is good reason too. Like you - I have checked for parasite, even take out the clam and clean the shell with a brush. I'm going to keep looking.

I figure that I currently have problem with PH and maintaining Ca. But if my water chemistry is an issue - why is the symptom only observed with a few clam?

I probably should not have post this - because I'm expecting new clam from Barry - if there is any concern with my setup. Several weeks ago I almost lost a baby Maxima (under 2 inch) - because I separate it from another clam (was not due to pinching) - and it is slowly recovering (all mantle are almost fully expanded - but lost its bright green color). So - I am doing something right with my tank. ...just a few that have pinching mantles.

[peterlin98]

Here is a picture of 2 corcea that have shrivel mantles. At night time - the mantles are much retracted into shell..During the day, they are expanded but you can see the mantles are not the fullest.

I have fresh water dipped both these crocea 2 month ago - they were fine - untile recently. Already check for irritant near the area - but did not find any. Note the crocea next to these is doing good.

[peterlin98]

Here is a photo of 2 squamosa. Note the one on the right - the pinching was not as bad as it was last week. However, the new squamosa to the left is showing some pinching. There is another squamosa (not shown) on the same tray that is doing well.

[Barry N.]

I see all Noted

Barry

[Minh Nguyen]

Guys and gals,
I just wanted to say that my blue clam pictured above was not cause by trauma, sting by corals, attack by fish or parasitic snails. I know how to keep clams. The two clams shown I have had for 2+ years and grew from 1.5 inches to over 3 inches. Water condition in my tank was optimal for clams and SPS. There was plenty of light.
I got this disease from trying to save a sick clam for a friend. I was cocky and think that the clams was not doing well because of water condition rather than disease.
Infected clam will show more extension of mantel in AM but less and the day go on. Initially, the mantle is local only (only on one segment of the mantel. As the disease progress, the whole mantle will get involved. This disease does not kill the clam quickly unless the clam started out in bad shape. IMO, it mainly kill because the clam unable to extend the mantle thus will not get enough light. It can take months for large clams and for small 1.5 inches, it can kills in weeks. My 18 inches Gigas was infected for about 1 year.
I was successfully treated all my infected clams. Please review the following thread (second page of the thread) for detail of the treatment:
http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21957
I do have one favor to ask of everyone who use the tratment I suggested. I would like for you to document the condition of your clams, the duration of infection, the course of the disease as you observed it in your clams, and the sucess or failure of treatment. I would like for you to send these result to me at:
minhnguyen@pol.net

Minh Nguyen

[peterlin98]

Minh -
I plan to treat the affected clams tomorrow. I have read the thread you posted on reef.org - having to treat all clams at once. I probably would defer that until I spot treat a few right now. Having 27 clams at the moment, I don't want to do anything too drastic.

I do want your opinion on the corcea pictures I posted here. What do you think? Mantle shown is not pinched - but overall I said the mantle appear to be shrivel.

[Minh Nguyen]

That is the picture of later stage of infection of a previously strong clam. Weaker clams often died before they got to this stage. Larger clams and healthier clams initially have large reserve and last longer.
If you can, dip and place the clam in a new tank. This will work just as well.
IME, I got 16 clams or so including the huge Gigas. I did not dip the Gigas for a long time because I worry that he may not tolerates the salinity change. This clam may be the only source of infection for the newly cure clams. When I decided that I will treat him also, I treated all the clams sick or not, because I do not plan to treat my Gigas again. I knew that the other 4 species tolerate the treatment well. Fortunately, my Gigas also tolerate the treatment well.
In your case, you may be successful by treating all visibly infected clams. I would error on over treat rather than under treat.
Good luck
Minh

[nvert]

thanks peter and minh.

i dipped the maxima yesterday for 30mins in fresh r/o. matched the temp and ph. i am reluctant to dip the crocea which only shows symptoms *sometimes* and the derasa which has never shown symtoms mainly due to my lack of experience with fresh water dips. if the dip goes well with the maxima, and only then if the symptoms reoccur, will i dip everybody. already he is looking better but like you said minh, the pinching is not as severe in the morning as it is before lights out. i'll know more in the next few days and will post.

good luck peter with your 27 clams!

[jeff967]

I wish I had seen this info about three months ago, I lost a nice 4 in blue max, same symptoms, my others have never looked like that, butt if they ever do they are in the r/o fast.
I wish you all the best luck, keep posting results
jeff

[Minh Nguyen]

Originally posted by nvert
anyone? mynh? peterlin98? barry?

mynh...how long did it take your clams to recover from the dip?

......
brad

Brad,
I assuming mynh=minh
The clams should recover from fresh water dip in 2 days. Mantle should expand fully after 48 hrs.
Minh

[peterlin98]

Just finished treating 11 clams that are suspects to have this problem. I dipped 3 squamosa, 5 corcea, and 3 maxima. A few clams remain close but most are partially open already.

The other 16 clams look normal so I did not want to stress them by doing this treatment.

[nvert]

sorry MINH! i had a vietemese friend back in school who spelled his name mynh.

anyways, the maxima is looking good. no pinching since the dip two days ago. he did gape a bit but that's to be expected. mantle looks good but time will tell. i'll post more later.

[Minh Nguyen]

Peter and others,
how are the clams today, several days after treatment?
Minh

[nvert]

here's my update....

my maxima has not shown pinching. he gaped for two days afterward and his color was very drab. it's been almost a week since his dip and his color is beginning to come back. keep your fingers crossed. since the maxima was working out well i decided to dip the crocea since it was beginning to pinch again. this was three days ago. the crocea took it well but his color is not at intense as it used to be. i'm sure he'll follow the same route as the maxima and color up nicely in a few days. i just hope the pinching stops.

brad

[Minh Nguyen]

If I am worry about the stress for the clams, I would dip them less than 30 min rather than using RO water mix with tank water. It is my OPINION that the infection is caused by microscopic parasites. Being small, it may take less than 30 minutes of fresh water to kill them.
I did not have mortality (only one death) with dipping for 30 minutes so I did not try to dip them for a shorter periord of time.
Good luck to everybody who have clams infected with this disease.
Minh Nguyen