Very long & sad story--need help

[Bughead]

They say that your 3rd year in a profession or hobby can be hard. You have all this experience, lots of "been there, done thats" and now you feel you really have a handle on the whole thing. Then something happens to knock out any confidence you had. This happened to me in my third year as a nurse, now it's happened in my third year as a NaH2O aquarium hobbiest.

Three weeks ago our local reef club had a sand trade. Members brought a cup a sand from their reef tank, we mixed it all together then took a cup of the mixed sand home. I brought home two cups, one for the reef and one for the 180 FOWLR. I still put most of the sand into the reef.
All this happened in the 180 gal.

Two days later my Klein's butterfly looked all splotchy and velvety and died the next day. Then my juv. emperor angel began looking sort of splotchy, but in my state of denial I hoped it was just evening camoflauge. But by 3 days later my Manderin dragonet was dead and the angel looked like he'd battled with a blender. I called my lfs and she diagnosed it as Brookynella, which is what it looked like. But that didn't make any sense because nothing (except the sand) had been added since August. So I put the angel in the q-tank and started medicating with Clout. I started Melafix in the main tank.

But the guy at the lfs insisted my tank was overstocked and water quality was poor. I do 25% monthly water changes and the params were ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 40ppm, pH 8.2. With the 200 lbs. lr and 6" DSB the biological filtration is beautiful.

I buy fresh ocean water and the guy came over with the delivery and saw the angel and said, Wow, he has a roaring fungus infection. I switched medications to Karasyn for the angel and continued Melafix in the big tank.

So by now I'm thinking I got some bad sand, but my reef tank is perfectly clear and fish healthy and nobody else in the club has had any problem. Then I get to thinking:

Last June I had a big black Donkey-dung cucumber bury itself in the sand and apparently die. In July two of my convict blennies turned up dead and I thought maybe they dug into that area and got poisoned. Their bodies were clean so the cause of death was puzzling, but the rest of the tank stayed healthy, so I sort of forgot about it.

I'm thinking that maybe a nasty fungus has developed in that area and my two remaining convict blennies disturbed it in their digging and the fish were infected. The blennies, by the way, are fine. So here's where I need your help. I have saved 3 of the fish bodies in the freezer ( Emp.angel, butterfly, and flame angel) in hope that I can find somebody with a microscope who could give me an accurate diagnosis. Who could possibly do that? We have UNLV here, and although they have biology labs, would they be able to identify a marine fungus or parasite? Any ideas?

Do you think I should continue the Melafix? The other big fish (foxface, hippo tang and sailfin tang) all have ich, of course. I've been feeding with Garlic Extreme. They're all active and eating well and don't show any signs of the blotchy velvet, just the ich spots.

The plan is this spring we're going to break down the whole tank and clean the sand. A lot of work but I don't want to get a nice healthy tank going only to have it crash again in 6 months or a year.

Sorry this is so long, and thanks for bearing with me. Any suggestions are welcome, but if you think the problem is that the tank was overstocked and water quality poor, keep it to yourself. I get very defencive because I know that isn't the problem. Do you think it could be Brookynella, even though I still have relatively healthy fish in there? Any other ideas?
Thanks again,
Linda

[moze229]

Melafix has worked wonders for me in the past in my quarantine. I can't use it is my main tank though because the skimmer sucks it right out. I had a Maroon when I had FOWLR that had large white patches on him (when I looked it up it was some form of parasite) and after using the Melafix for just 4 days it was gone. I've also used it on a Tang that started to develop HLLE and was stressed from high nitrates. He recovered quickly.

At any rate, it seems that your theory on the death in the sand bed could be true, but I would think otherwise since it's been so long. The DSB would have been sifted through several times by now, slowly releasing whatever toxins may have been present. It also seems that the blennies would have been affected in some way as well.

I would not wash the sand as you are proposing. If it is close to three years old from what I'm reading, the DSB is in the prime of it's life. If you wash it or replace it, you'll have to start the whole process over again. You probably have better sand than some of the rest of us. I know it's probably better than mine

There are so many possibilities as to what caused this. As we all know diseases, chemicals, nutrients, etc.. have different effects on different species of fish. Something in the air perhaps that got into the water? One of the pieces in the equipment I suppose may be leaching something into the water that you cannot test for. Did a thermometer break? I suppose mysterious death outbreaks like this happen on occasion. Good luck and happy reef keeping. It will all work out in the end

[fishrule]

I have 15 fish (3-5 inches) in a 200 gallon. Since I have so many fish, I change 35 gallons every week. My fish never have any disease or problems. I really think changing the water each week is the best. Even if the nitrates are low.

[wgscott]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bughead

Three weeks ago our local reef club had a sand trade. Members brought a cup a sand from their reef tank, we mixed it all together then took a cup of the mixed sand home. I brought home two cups, one for the reef and one for the 180 FOWLR. I still put most of the sand into the reef.
All this happened in the 180 gal.[/i]

My guess is that you realize this now, but for anyone else reading, this has about as much to recommend for it as getting together with some heroin addicts and becoming blood brothers.

as Brookynella, which is what it looked like. But that didn't make any sense because nothing (except the sand) had been added since August.

Parasites live in the sand. That is where they go during their external phase of the life cycle.

But the guy at the lfs insisted my tank was overstocked and water quality was poor. I do 25% monthly water changes and the params were ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 40ppm, pH 8.2. With the 200 lbs. lr and 6" DSB the biological filtration is beautiful.

The only thing wrong with your water is what the sand did to it.

I buy fresh ocean water and the guy came over with the delivery and saw the angel and said, Wow, he has a roaring fungus infection. I switched medications to Karasyn for the angel and continued Melafix in the big tank.

So by now I'm thinking I got some bad sand, but my reef tank is perfectly clear and fish healthy and nobody else in the club has had any problem. Then I get to thinking:

Last June I had a big black Donkey-dung cucumber bury itself in the sand and apparently die. In July two of my convict blennies turned up dead and I thought maybe they dug into that area and got poisoned. Their bodies were clean so the cause of death was puzzling, but the rest of the tank stayed healthy, so I sort of forgot about it.

I'm thinking that maybe a nasty fungus has developed in that area and my two remaining convict blennies disturbed it in their digging and the fish were infected. The blennies, by the way, are fine. So here's where I need your help. I have saved 3 of the fish bodies in the freezer ( Emp.angel, butterfly, and flame angel) in hope that I can find somebody with a microscope who could give me an accurate diagnosis. Who could possibly do that? We have UNLV here, and although they have biology labs, would they be able to identify a marine fungus or parasite? Any ideas?

I still think you got parasites introduced with the sand-swap. The other thing is a red herring. Cucumbers and their toxins break down pretty quickly.

Do you think I should continue the Melafix? The other big fish (foxface, hippo tang and sailfin tang) all have ich, of course.

Wow, you have multiple diseases going on now? Yikes. IS this the FOWLR tank? If so, hyposalinity is the best treatment.

I've been feeding with Garlic Extreme. They're all active and eating well and don't show any signs of the blotchy velvet, just the ich spots.

This is how I would do it if it were my reef tank. But if there are no invertibrates, sg=1.009 for 3 weeks.

The plan is this spring we're going to break down the whole tank and clean the sand. A lot of work but I don't want to get a nice healthy tank going only to have it crash again in 6 months or a year.

Don't touch the sand. That is much more likely to cause a crash than prevent it.

Sorry this is so long, and thanks for bearing with me. Any suggestions are welcome, but if you think the problem is that the tank was overstocked and water quality poor, keep it to yourself. I get very defencive because I know that isn't the problem. Do you think it could be Brookynella, even though I still have relatively healthy fish in there? Any other ideas?
Thanks again,
Linda

Don't share needles with AIDS patients. Don't share sand with anyone either. I've had nitrates over 100 ppm in my reef and although polyps weren't opening up as much, the fish suffered no obvious effects. If it were your water it would be gradual. If it were overstocking, it wouldn't just happen like that.

I agree with your salt water delivery guy that it is a disease. Brookylnella looks like a fungus from what I hear. The only time I had a major ich outbreak, my batfish and clowns had it so bad that I thought they had brooklynella, but all survived. The fact that you lost fish quickly makes me worry it might be brooklynella or even velvet, but if it were the latter you would probably be going to more fishy funerals right now.

Anyway, good luck, weather the storm, don't give up, and don't touch that sand bed!!!

[Bughead]

wgscott, thank you so, so much for your reply. I think it's good solid advice for me, who at this time is very scattered and panicky. Just part of my personality, and the reason I could never be a trauma/ER nurse.

The last fish I lost was my flame angel 4 days ago. That brings it to a loss of half the tank population. Of the 3 remaining big fish, the sailfin tang is perfectly clean, the hippo tang has 3 or 4 spots and the foxface still has lots of spots but is clearing up. All are active and eating well.

I agree about the sand but I still wonder why I have no problem in the reef tank and no one else in the reef club reported any problems. Maybe it was that certain unfortunate combination in my tank.

Thanks again and I will follow your advice, starting today reducing the salinity. I'm still going to pursue a diagnosis, and believe me, I'll never again trade sand or share my needles.

[ozmonster]

Originally posted by wgscott


Don't share needles with AIDS patients. Don't share sand with anyone either.

Couldn't disagree more. Sand swaps are very beneficial in spreading diversity of fauna and micro-fauna throughout the sand bed. Taking the above logic to its extreme, one shouldn't add anything that could carry live organisms to a tank.

Originally posted by wgscott


I still think you got parasites introduced with the sand-swap. The other thing is a red herring.

Bughead: IMHO, the parasite/sand theory is a red herring. Your problem may be caused by a parasite but to definatively say that it came from the sand is unfounded. If there was a parasite released into tank by sand, one would expect the fish in the reef tank to be affected (especially if most of the LS was deposited there). There are many disease causing parasites and bacteria in our aquariums at all times. Stress, from agressive fish and/or water quality changes, can allow these disease causing agents to get a foot hold. Your FOWLR could have one or a combination of factors adding to your problem.

Your problem may not be as simple as wgscott contends. Keep monitoring your water quality and I would do a big (25%) water change now and another in a few days to clean the water column and to get those nitrates down. Be sure not to overmedicate as it is my belief that this will do more harm then good.

Its easy to say your problem came from the sand but the danger is that you then ignore other possible causes.

good luck, oz

[Bughead]

Thanks for your input, ozmonster. I've gone back and forth about the whole sand thing, blaming it because it was the only thing introduced in 4 months, but on the other hand, not blaming it because the reef tank remains healthy. I'm still pursuing a firm diagnosis and going with the hyposalinity. And because of this experience I won't ever trade sand again, even tho like you said it was probably a combination of factors.

I'll leave this on a happy note: Roger Rabbit, my big foxface looks great tonight and I have to look real close to see any spots. Hippie has only 3 spots left and Skipper, the sailfin is still clean and king of the tank. All 3 piscene friends look real good.