[Caesar Augustus]

If I set My 55 back up I was entertaining the notion of going skimmerless. Would putting a medium CVR refugium enable me to do so. What would I need to put in it? It is my understanding that it is better to have only one inch of miracle mud in them as opposed to more. Also, would one of those hang on refugiums provide enough oxygen exchange and such? Well give it to me straight.
Keep the Faith,
Napoleon

[Caesar Augustus]

No Ideas?? I'm sending this one back up top. I gotta know
Bonaparte

[reefer504]

I have been "Skimmerless"for about six months now.I don't have a hang on Refug. I just added a baffle im my sump put a couple of inches of playsand in it with a handful of Razor Calupra(sp?)I have not had any problems with my setup.Just rember you want a slow flow through the Refug.

[reefhead]

no big deal really. the initial startup of an aquarium is not going to tell you much. you need to stick out all the algea problems will come after the 7-8 mo. period.

I have been skimmerless oin my new 54 for 3mo. now. i grow and harvest alot of different species of macro algea to export excess nutrients. i read an article by E. Bornemen , in it he talked about the amount of plankton that is removed from skimming. After removing or not even adding a skimmer you will notice alot more sponges, bugs, feather dusters, and algea.(grow macros' to compete with the nuciance stuff)

Here is the article. there are many different parts.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-07/eb/index.htm

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-08/eb/index.htm

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-10/eb/index.htm

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/eb/index.htm

part 5 is coming out in January @ www.reefkeeping.com


hope this helps, the best thing to do is just try it for yourself. no system is the same, so.........


cheers,
Joe

[Caesar Augustus]

What kinds of micro would ya'll recommend for the refugium?
Napoleon

[tendar]

I have been running my 37 sps clam tank for 1 year now from the start skimmerless and I run a 18" CPR hang on refugiim. On a 55 I would go with the 24". They really are not that big so the bigger the better.
I used 5 lbs of miracle mud and if did it again I would have just added 2" of sand. I really dont think the mud is worth anything and will probablly be removing my mud soon since some people start to have algea problems after 1 year using it and I am starting to see some cyno poping up in mine.
Pretty much any calurpa is good. I have razor and grape in mine and a little feather.

[Caesar Augustus]

Wow, I was going to use Miracle mud as well. So a lot of people have probs with it. I think I'll start a thread on it and get some Ideas. Thanks for the informed advise, I might have made the same mistake.
Bonaparte

[tendar]

maybe I shouldnt say alot but some have but there is no prof that it was the miracle mud just speculation

[bongobrian]

Skimmerless with a refugium is a great way to go IMO. I have a philosophy that you should go with one or the other. I've tried both and have noticed the best results when just running the refugium. The corals in the tank seem healthier and seem to be really getting fed a lot from it.

I think you should go with a larger refugium though... and I would go with a sump style fuge instead of the hang on, just because it looks better and will generally be larger and easier to work with. It really sucks having to reach behind your tank to work on a fuge.. or having to stand on a chair or whatever.

I've had my system running with miracle mud now for 2 years with no problems. I have only positive things to say about that type of filtration. The only thing you may need to do is run some carbon every once in a while to break down the yellowing compounds that tend to build up in the water.

[reefhead]

all of them, as they will each pull something a little different than the next..

diversity is the key.......

[Tank]

Not really sure why everyone still uses calurpa for refugiums. I have found a brillo type algae that works awesome for me.And grows faster than calurpa did in my tank. This stuff went from the size of a dollar bill to almost filling a 35 gal tank in about 2 months. If I can find my Algae book Ill put the right name on this post. Anyone local wants some of this let me know.

[jsaltzgi]

My 75 gallon mixed reef tank has been skimmerless from the start. We had a 29 gallon with 20 gallon sump before that was started with a skimmer and then went skimmerless. You really do notice an increase in the diversity of bugs, sponges. etc. You may notice a slight greenish/yellowish tinge to the water after a while, but that is easily cleared with some carbon every 4-6 weeks for a couple of days.

I added the caulerpa to the sump after the initial cycle, and shortly thereafter the nitrates, etc. dropped below what my test kits measured.

The thing to consider is that there are many approaches to mainaining a reef aquarium. If you like the skimmerless option and it works for you, great!

James

[SPasse]

Hi All,

Here is my current thoughts about “Skimmerless Systems”

My last system was a hybrid Ecosystem, with a DSB in the main tank. No skimmer was used.

http://www.homestead.com/spasse/Old180Gallon.html

But adding a skimmer is also an option, and a recent article by Dr. Ron shows that we need to work at developing as many “export systems” as possible. The more the merrier.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-...ature/index.htm

So my next system will probably include a good skimmer, in addition to algae filtration, a mud bed, and DSB.

Feed heavily, maximize your export systems.

Regards,

Scott

[scubadude]

Originally posted by SPASSE
Hi All,
..........
So my next system will probably include a good skimmer, in addition to algae filtration, a mud bed, and DSB.

Feed heavily, maximize your export systems.

SCOTT!! Dewd! you are still alive
I spoke w/leng about his system and from what I gathered is that he could see where there may be some beneficial factors w/ using a DSB in conjuction w/ the mud system but stressed that the Mud system needed to be solely run by itself. I know you arent talking about mixing sand w/mud ....right? partitions in your sump like your old setup? also you plan on skimming 24/7? or as needed? I have always liked your concepts to fuges and would appreciate more input on this.

BTW Nice to see you around again

[SPasse]

Scubadude,

I am alive, it just that moderating at ReefCentral is using up most of my available “board time”

No, I am not talking about mixing say Southdown with the Miracle Mud, just having a DSB in the main tank and the mud bed in the sump/refugium.

I am convinced that Leng’s “issues” with having a DSB and a Ecosystem mud bed in the same system was based on his experiences with mixing Ecosystems and crushed coral substrates in the main tank. I.E. the nutrient loads presented by detritus “rotting” in a crushed coral sand bed overwhelmed the nutrient processing capabilities of the Ecosystem sump.

I have talked with Dr. Ron about this and he sees no reason why a mud bed “ecosystem” in the sump and a DSB in the main tank wouldn’t work “synergistically” That was certainly my experience.

Skimming 24/7? Experimentally. Despite my reservations about plankton destruction, Dr. Ron’s article sited above, has moved me to the idea that a skimmers benefits outweigh its detrimental effects on plankton.

Now I do believe that if you set up a system that had:

1 A DSB in the main tank

2 An Ecosystem mud bed/algae filtration setup in the sump

3 An efficient skimmer

That you would have to feed the system heavily or these systems might very well “starve each other out” This was an issue, even in my last system, which did not have a skimmer. And the skimmer should be “properly placed” to minimize it’s impact on the refugium’s fauna population.

I will probably use a powerful skimmer, like a EuroReef 8 series.

Regards,

Scott

[Papa Doug]

My belief is similar with what Scott has said. Although I have not used the Eco filtration, I have done most else. Ran just with a skimmer, skimmerless,etc.

I am now running my 225 like Scott mentioned. I use my ATS, instead of something like a Eco filter. {just a different option}. Plus I run a large efficient skimmer. And I, like I always have, feed lots.

[Caesar Augustus]

Spasse & Dude its good to see you both. So what do you think about this. A 4-5 in DSB in the main tank and a 1 in miracle mud refugium, med feed, and carbon once a month??? Sound good?
Napoleon

[SPasse]

Napoleon,

What you have in mind sounds fine.

The point that I was making is that I now believe that adding a skimmer to a system that is algae filtered is a good thing. Dr Ron’s series of articles “It’s in the Water, It’s still in the Water, and the Down the Drain” article that I site above show that when it comes to export methods, the more the merrier.

He has also indicated that due to the very high levels of heavy metals in freshly mixed synthetic salt water, that pretreatment with carbon and “Poly Filters” is probably a prudent consideration.

If nothing else, a skimmer is a great way to increase the oxygen level in a system. I have had systems where I ran a skimmer, backed off to the point where no skimate was collected, just to use the skimmer for oxygenation.

If you would add a good skimmer to your proposed solution, you could feed heavily, i.e. at a level approaching “natural levels.”

Regards,

Scott