Small Flatworm Problem.

[Legion]

Well after 3 years I guess it was bound to happen. I finally have the first stages of a flatworm infestation. I have caught it pretty early, though siphoning isnt really working out to well. I HAVE NEVER nor do I want to start now adding medications to my system, and looking for a more natural predation method. I have read that the Lep. Wrasse is a canidate but have yet to hear any experiences with them in reef systems. Has anyone had any luck with them and if not what elses have you had good sucess with ( please no second hand info, ive read plenty of that )

PS- also heard that some mandarins are possible canadates, seeing as how he would be the only fish in my 75 besides my watchman goby there would be plenty of pods for him to feed on after the worms are extinct.

Any ideas or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

[scubadude]

Hey Chris,
Salifert has recently just came out with a product called "Flatworm Exit" Habib (the owner/chemist of salifert) has been known to come out in the past with some fairly high quality products, and this one so far has not fallen short of his reputation. Check out this thread

http://www.reefcentral.com/vbulletin...hreadid=138836

I Personally think its a combination of too low of flow and excessive nutrients in your system. A couple of PH's and a reduction of feedings to me has always worked fine.

[kevinpo]

Chris,
There are many types of flatworms and the controls vary with the type. Which type do you have?

Regards,
Kevin

[Palmetto]

I had them (the red nasty planarians) pop up in my bottom tank (sort of a sump/ softie tank) where the flow is low and nutrients higher than the top because of the overflow skimming the surface from the top tank.

I also did not have any fish to speak of in that tank. I added a couple yellow-tail damsels and a yellow(target) mandarin, and a green mandarin. I have observed all of these fish picking them off rocks and glass. Lowering salinity to 1.016 and decreasing the temp to 77 cut their numbers drastically also.

All the fish are happy, and I have plenty of other systems to move them to if they start looking not as fat.

[Legion]

Thanks for the quick replys.

Salifert has recently just came out with a product called "Flatworm Exit" Habib

Yes I have been hearing about this product alot in the last few weeks.

I Personally think its a combination of too low of flow and excessive nutrients in your system. A couple of PH's and a reduction of feedings to me has always worked fine.

Well the flow isnt an issue, not that I disagree with your statement, just the excessive nutrients and low flow really isnt an issue in my system( i do not, nor have I feed this system in over a year ) I also have 4 MJ12's and a larger PH throughtout the tank, including behind the rockwork. I actually can trace back the infected coral to the LFS it came from ( They to are having a problem with the same type of flatworms at the moment. ) I actually watched them spread out from the frag purchased there. But By the time I noticed the lil guys it was already to late.

There are many types of flatworms and the controls vary with the type. Which type do you have?

Well they arent the dreaded red planaria, I have yet to get a positive Id on them and a photo of them is really out of the question till I can find a good digi cam with a manual zoom. The best I can describe them is they are a yellow/orange coloration with a tiny brighter yellow fleck near the center. I know its impossible to ID by a description but thats about all I have at the moment.

On a side note. The LFS that has the infestation has been notified ( BY me) and they are using a mandarin with from what I have seen with my eyes pretty good sucess. He also mentioned a customer with the same type of flatworm that used greenx with 100% results. Im just leary of chemical control. I had seen a possible soultion of the Lepoard Wrasse on another site ( forgot to save it of course, that seemed to readily eat the exact same type I have, but I have been unable to get other souces to confirm or deny such claims )

Thanks again

Chris

[kevinpo]

Chris,
I had this type in my 90 gal frag grow out tank. They were on the glass and rocks by the 1,000's. They were eating algae. I tried some shrimp from the gulf coast that were sent to me by a marine biologist down there. They didn't touch them. I had them for about a year when I had 2 things happen close together so I can't be sure which one eradicated every one of them in a few weeks time. I must have traded with someone who had some larger whitish clear flatworms with a large hood on them. I observed these engulfing the smaller brown flatworms and eating them. I only saw 2 of these. Then about 2 weeks later I suddenly noticed there was not a single flatworm in the tank. I did a water test for calcium and alkalinity. My alkalinity was 15.4 dKH/5.49 meq/l. I didn't do anything drastic just let it drop by itself over the next week down to about 10.6 dKH/3.77 meq/L (that's where I normally keep it). All the corals looked normal during this time. But I have not seen a flatworm since (that was the end of July '02)

Maybe something to try?

Regards,
Kevin

[Palmetto]

Chris,

I ended up nuking this tank 2 days ago. After reading Flame*Angel's struggles with them (she got TOTM on RC, her website is here: http://www.sjwilson.net/reef/ ) and how she wished she had addressed them in the early stages, I became convinced to go ahead and take care of it with a low dosage of Quinsulex (Quinine sulfate), which is the ingredient that works on them in Greenex but without the Malachite Green, which you do not need.

First, I drained the bottom tank way down so that by filling it I could quickly dilute the toxins that the flatworms release into the water column when they "melt". I added a second skimmer temporarily to skim these juices out also. I also gradually lowered my salinity over two days to 1.016 to allow for a higher oxygen content to ease the stress on the animals.

The box calls for 1 capsule per 10 gallons. I only used 5 capsules for two 75-gallon tanks. The effects were immediate. My HUGE hammer coral (over a foot across) and frogspawn started sliming badly and withdrew. They looked for all the world like they would be dead by morning. They are now fine. Flatworms were all visibly gone within one hour. Two SPS frags that had been damaged by falling into the sand or getting stung by corals completely RTN'd. Healthy SPS closed up and are just polyping back out now. I lost three new Bangai Cardinals that I had just put in before deciding to do this, they had only been in the tank 48 hrs. and might have died anyway. Clams appeared unaffected, other than closing up for about an hour after treatment. I started running carbon after a few hours, and filled the tanks back up with fresh RO/DI water salted to the same level. I still see plenty of pods and my brittlestars are fine. Bristleworms are still fine, I can find them under the clams and rocks just like always.

In short, my treatment appears to be a success. I am running carbon and the two skimmers now, and will do heavy partial water changes every other day for a while. My "for sale" livestock is kept in other systems for the most part, what I did have in there was moved for the treatment.

Warnings/ concerns to others considering this:
I would consider SPS that has any tissue loss at all to be extremely vulnerable and IMO should be moved before treatment. The frags only had small areas of damaged tissue, but completely RTN'd when the stuff was added. I think that lowering the salinity to increase oxygen was probably a big help. Lowering the water level also made it easy for me to dilute the toxins very quickly after the flatties melted.

I will post an update next week as we see how this all washes out. With the low dosage, there is a chance that eggs or something were not destroyed - but I figured I would rather risk letting some flatties live than overmedicate my specimens.

Going without any fish in the low-current and high-nutrient area was what created my problem IMO. I think there are probably flatworms in all of our liverock, sand, etc that do not become a problem in normal environments. I did not have a heavy population of them by any means, but I got scared by Flame*Angel's description of how everything in the tank stressed when the population of flatties would surge- just from the toxins that live red planaria secrete. Once they reach high population levels, the high toxin level created during their demise often prevents treatment at that point. (or makes it much scarier!)

Good luck!

[sunflashx]

Kevin,

Is that worm in the picture one of the good or one of the bad? I see ones like in that picture on my glass now and then. I haven't seen them anywhere else in the tank.

[Legion]

Kevin, Palmetto & All.

Thanks again for the advice and information. Kevin I have also seen the larger white flatworms( there are much less in number probally no more than 10-15, if that ) in my system and since come to find out that they are harmless. Ironicly I was looking last night with my maglite at the place of origin( of the ones im concrened about ), and low and behold there were 2 of the bigger white ones. I did not see them eating any at that time, however I find it odd that you mention that, then I notice theses near the point of infestation.


Palmetto, yes I too have been reading about Flame's struggle with her infestation. Glad to hear that you had such good success with your method.

I will try to keep you updated as to my chossen method and overall sucess with it.


Chris

[kevinpo]

sunflashx,
This type is certainly less noticeable than the red ones. They will however multiply to unsightly proportions and don't seem to mind intense light. They are just smaller and blend in better to their surroundings. As to their being good or bad ones that mostly depends on your perspective I don't know of any of the common Planaria sp. that cause any harm to corals or fish. We just like to be in control of our little ocean and want it to look a certain way ;)

I was asking the type to see if it was the same ones I had experience with. It can be bad to assume a remedy for one species will work on all species.

Regards,
Kevin

[kevinpo]

Here is a link to some good information on flatworms.

http://www.rshimek.com/odd_critters.htm#Flatworms

HTH,
Kevin

[reefhead]

these are the ones most feared

The red planarian, Convolutriloba retrogemma


the one on the previous page is an algea eater--these red ones have zooxanthellae

[jsaltzgi]

The only real problem with the flatworms in my reef was when their population crashed. I went to bed and everything was fine. The next morning, the corals looked stressed and the fish looked like they were dipped in bleach. Something caused the flatworms- almost all of them- to die during the night. Thousands... I tested the water, everything SEEMED fine, but I was worried about their toxins, so hooked up the carbon and began doing daily 20% water changes. After about a week, the corals seemed to be recovering, and the fish looked okay the next day. This experience would lead me to want to get the little buggers out before their numbers are astronomical...

I would definitely recommend siphoning out what you can before trying a chemical approach. Then use carbon and do water changes galore- you don't want all those toxins causing any problems...

Just my $0.02 worth. Good luck!!!

James

[Legion]

Thanks everyone.


Will keep you as informed as I can with this battle

[rededteck]

I am very interested in how you make out. I hope you will be able to remove them naturally with a 6 line wrasse or mandarin. There may be additives out there to kill these off, but I would be concerned with the long term affects on a reef tank using chemicals?